RUSSIA - A land scarred by the Wars of past

[Jeoshua]

Interesting, but you say "Still have" as if you've mentioned it before. If you have, I appologize and I didn't hear it.

 

Why would the Russians have a similar relationship to the Chinese, and what do you mean precisely by that since the US and China have no "official" relations or contact in the time of Fallouts' settings.

[devinpatterson]

Interesting, but you say "Still have" as if you've mentioned it before. If you have, I appologize and I didn't hear it.

 

Why would the Russians have a similar relationship to the Chinese, and what do you mean precisely by that since the US and China have no "official" relations or contact in the time of Fallouts' settings.

 

I think he meant the Russian relationship with the fallout U.S. mirrors our real world relationship with the Chinese. And there is some evidence to support that in the wiki. The fallout U.S. had consular relations which implies at least a basic diplomatic relationship and of course we didn't go to war with them. But the fallout U.S. still bagged on them in public as part of the red scare.

Edited December 28, 2011 by devinpatterson

[Jeoshua]

Well that would certainly make sense. Accepting of the powerful ally, but worried about what they might do. And at least in the case of the Fallout universe, that worry was somewhat justified, as they were just as responsible for the Great War as the United States, what with invading Alaska.

[LambentEarache]

Well, both Russia and China are or used to be communists. So that may explain something.

[Jeoshua]

I believe it has been established that they were allies during the time of the Resource Wars. More than allies, maybe. I don't have any hard evidence of that, but I know it's generally an accepted thing.

[devinpatterson]

Check out the Sino–Soviet border conflict. I definitely get hte impression (regardless of their public face and unified support of communism) that there was no love lost between Russia and China. In fact according to the wiki (our real-world wiki), that conflict is what set China and America on a path to better relations in our world, resulting in our current (relatively positive) relationship with China. It's something along the lines of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing from China's POV. It's actually pretty interesting stuff, don't remember studying any of it in class.

 

Could work with the same time period, during the height of the cold war.

 

If we fllip China and Russia's political outlook/military power, we have a very solid guideline that reflects well on established fallout lore. China takes the place of a very aggressive world power that Russia occupied in our real world time line. Except this time, instead of blinking and pulling the missiles back from Cuba, someone hits the button and it all goes to hell.

 

Conversely fallout Russia takes the geo-political role of our real world China during the cold war. A lot of bluster about the virtues of communism, dissing capitalism etc, but not engaging in any major conflicts. No longer one of two super powers per se, but still a military force to be reckoned with and in no danger of becoming anyone's puppet. It lets us keep all the iconic cold war propaganda, but still fits well into the wiki lore (where the USSR stayed out of the resource wars).

 

This is partly why I think the height of the cold war during the 1960's (especially the early part of the decade) is best to showcase the penultimate of our ***American view*** of Russia. It was the cold war, the propaganda and military showmanship was at it's peak. If you want to leverage the " kill the capitalist pigs!" meme, that time period is the purest cultural representation of it.

 

Jeoshua's suggestion of the Bolshevik revolution is certainly a iconic piece of Russian culture, but it was directed primarily at destroying the existing Russian social structure (exemplified by the Tsar and royal family). If the 1960's are used you still get all the trappings of the party plus the focus on America as the source of capitalist ills.

 

I believe it has been established that they were allies during the time of the Resource Wars. More than allies, maybe. I don't have any hard evidence of that, but I know it's generally an accepted thing.

 

If so, they would be allies in name only. The wiki says they were in no direct conflict with the U.S during the resource wars. But that's ok, it's more interesting if they have they'r own motivations and interests rather than just mimicking China. Makes for a richer story line.

 

We could leverage the Sino–Soviet border conflict as an example and the Vietnam war during the (roughly) same period, as a sort of guideline to Russian and Chinese damaged/poor relations. Partly because of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and partly because of the Sino–Soviet border conflict, the Chinese demanded Vietnam cut relations with Russia, when Vietnam refused China withdrew it's military and misc support of Vietnam. Essentially they started a little war of politics trying to isolate and cut off the Soviets from other countries, and I'm sure the Soviets did the same. This shows the serious internal cracks/fractures between teh two, hidden just below the surface. We could play it the same way;

 

Russia and China allies in the public light, both dissing the the U.S. as the capitalist home of all the ills of society. But in reality constantly on the edge of (or actually engaged in small) conflict. It would explain why the Soviets weren't involved during the resource wars (let the two biggest kids on the block punch themselves out), and why they weren't a active military ally of China during the great war (it's an unknown actually). Especially since ner the very end, power armor divisions were being landed on the Chinese mainland (check out resource wars under 2074).

 

That ties together well with the first part of my post, re: Russia decrying the American imperialists but being relatively non-combative with the U.S.

 

I was thinking somewhere around Lake Baikal, myself. That's pretty close the the Sino-Russian border to fit, yes? It gives the opportunity for a few things, that I can see:.....4) Sibera, Russia, China, and Mongolia. All near enough that their people could be represented. Their counterparts in America would be Tribals, Brotherhood, Enclave, and Raiders.

 

Lake Baikal seems like a intriguing location. I didn't get a chance to do much more than skim the wiki, but I noticed a few points. It has the Trans-Siberian railway which would be interesting. It's in a rift valley which means a heck of a lot of landscape wouldn't need to be made, saving a ton of LOD work in the game engine. And it's home to the Buryats tribals, which are very similar to the Mongols and would be relativity unaffected by the loss of all modern tech.

Edited December 28, 2011 by devinpatterson

[Doc Martiney]

 

If so, they would be allies in name only. The wiki says they were in no direct conflict with the U.S during the resource wars. But that's ok, it's more interesting if they have they'r own motivations and interests rather than just mimicking China. Makes for a richer story line.

 

We could leverage the Sino–Soviet border conflict as an example and the Vietnam war during the (roughly) same period, as a sort of guideline to Russian and Chinese damaged/poor relations. Partly because of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and partly because of the Sino–Soviet border conflict, the Chinese demanded Vietnam cut relations with Russia, when Vietnam refused China withdrew it's military and misc support of Vietnam. Essentially they started a little war of politics trying to isolate and cut off the Soviets from other countries, and I'm sure the Soviets did the same. This shows the serious internal cracks/fractures between teh two, hidden just below the surface. We could play it the same way;

 

Russia and China allies in the public light, both dissing the the U.S. as the capitalist home of all the ills of society. But in reality constantly on the edge of (or actually engaged in small) conflict. It would explain why the Soviets weren't involved during the resource wars (let the two biggest kids on the block punch themselves out), and why they weren't a active military ally of China during the great war (it's an unknown actually). Especially since ner the very end, power armor divisions were being landed on the Chinese mainland (check out resource wars under 2074).

 

 

That sounds like Russians ducked before both big boys on the block and finally got caught in crossfire.

Well, if Soviets choked out that Sino-Soviet (and some, teeth-grinding other) "incidents", because they didn't want to deliver casus belli to Chinese (being weak at that moment due fracturing and attacks from outside), what caused irritation in the Red Army personnel based near the Chinese borders. The Chinese could've literally picked on them to cause distress.

And let's imagine China proposed another offer Russia can't withstand - allow access to Lena bassin - the secondbiggest oil/gas field and quite a third of Siberia in exchange for stationing "military support" against, let's say, resurfaced White Guardians, the Tsarist army, which appear in the middle of Siberia, consist of large amounts of asiatic-looking (!)Mongols and weaken the Soviet forces with guerilla tactics. In addition, the Soviets withdrew their most forces to strenghten the defences around the capitals beyond Ural and their largest stock of crude and gas, the Westsiberian oil fields, just in east of Ural. At the same time, Soviets are antsy about their confirmed, but yet unclaimed Elkon Uranium Stock in Yakutia, in very East, just north of Lena bassin, near the Bering sea. What lies behind the Bering Sea? Anchorage.

Americans. They'll liberate the hell out of you and take your uranium. :D So, it's a lose/lose situation for Soviets - either the Chinese get what they want by invading it (and they did, all the way to Anchorage) or the Americans come over the pond.

 

So what do you think, why did Natasha's grandfather, the Soviet consul, did come over to US? "Come over and help us out with that pesky Chinese but don't touch these territories"?

[devinpatterson]

 

That sounds like Russians ducked before both big boys on the block and finally got caught in crossfire.

Well, if Soviets choked out that Sino-Soviet (and some, teeth-grinding other) "incidents", because they didn't want to deliver casus belli to Chinese (being weak at that moment due fracturing and attacks from outside), what caused irritation in the Red Army personnel based near the Chinese borders. The Chinese could've literally picked on them to cause distress.

 

Could be. The little info that I read on the wiki re: the Sino-Soviet boarder clash in 69, seems like a total dick move out of nowhere. Chinese troops ambushed Soviet boarder guards resulting in 58 dead. Tensions had been rising over various issues (an old treaty/boarder dispute, Russia accepting some ethnic Uyghurs that had fled China etc), but there wasn't any actual military conflict until then.

 

And let's imagine China proposed another offer Russia can't withstand - allow access to Lena bassin - the secondbiggest oil/gas field and quite a third of Siberia in exchange for stationing "military support"

 

I could see something like that happening, since in the fallout world China caries more military might than Russia, but China would have to be in pretty desperate straights to strong arm the USSR. The USSR may not have been one of the two biggest kids on the block (in the fallout world) but they were still in the top 4 or 5 world powers. Plus I'd be worried about going that route primarily because hte USSR (according to the wiki) was able to stay neutral throughout the resource wars, and frankly I think the U.S. would consider material aid on that level (oil from Lena basin) a less than neutral act.

 

It might work better for the story line and lore, if the USSR played the two sides off against each other and stayed completely out of the mix until near the end of the great war. Then bringing in your idea of China (desperately needing Russia's oil reserves) making the USSR a "offer they can't refuse". Especially if it happened after the U.S. landed power armor infantry on it's coast, just before the final big bang of the great war. With power armor infantry on their homeland, China might just be desperate enough (to get those oil reserves) to roll the dice on that longshot.

 

Perhaps USSR gave the Chinese a big FU. Or they capitulated and the U.S. was forced to disrupt access to the Lena basin which drew the USSR into the great war at the last moment. Or possibly they agreed to China's terms and were allied against the U.S. forces on the mainland. Bur regardless of the events leading up to it, they were drawn in to the final holocaust in the end. Otherwise we'd all be speaking Russian in the Mojave. I'd recommend something on the same level as the U.S. Heavily populated cities Moscow, Leningrad etc hit hard (like D.C was) but various wilderness areas escaping with comparatively little destruction (like most of the Mojave).

 

against, let's say, resurfaced White Guardians, the Tsarist army, which appear in the middle of Siberia, consist of large amounts of asiatic-looking (!)Mongols and weaken the Soviet forces with guerilla tactics.

 

I skimmed the the wiki on the military history of the soviet union, so that I had an understanding of where you were coming from in re: to the White Guardians/Tsarist army. I think it's a very interesting concept and it fits well in one respect, specifically the outside interventionist forces. But I don't feel like it fits well with the other aspects. Potentially we're talking about 150 years since the Bolshevist/Red army fought the Russian Provisional Government/White army. After that period of time there just doesn't seem like any support for a return to a Tsar could still exist.

 

But after the bombs fell would be a different story. I could certainly see a resurgence of the Tsar's dynasty, with someone or several someones laying claim to the bloodline and engaged in exactly the war you describe with what is left of "official" USSR gov fragments. And potentially aided by outside groups as the white/Tsaris army was.

 

In addition, the Soviets withdrew their most forces to strenghten the defences around the capitals beyond Ural and their largest stock of crude and gas, the Westsiberian oil fields, just in east of Ural. At the same time, Soviets are antsy about their confirmed, but yet unclaimed Elkon Uranium Stock in Yakutia, in very East, just north of Lena bassin, near the Bering sea. What lies behind the Bering Sea? Anchorage.

Americans. They'll liberate the hell out of you and take your uranium. :D So, it's a lose/lose situation for Soviets - either the Chinese get what they want by invading it (and they did, all the way to Anchorage) or the Americans come over the pond.

 

It puts a more concrete, detailed, strategic description of the situation the USSR is in, than my example. I can't vouch for the validity of it, since my knowledge of Russian/USSR geography is zero, and the hits for Yakutia on google are less than helpful, but it makes sense if I understand your point correctly.

 

So what do you think, why did Natasha's grandfather, the Soviet consul, did come over to US? "Come over and help us out with that pesky Chinese but don't touch these territories"?

 

You know I never played FO2, so the only thing I really know about Natasha is from the wiki. But your suggestion seems reasonable. It mirrors a small a little info I read in the (real-world) wiki regarding the Sino–Soviet border conflict;

 

"Further border clashes occurred in August 1969, this time along the western section of the Sino–Soviet border in Xinjiang. Heightened tensions raised the prospect of a nuclear war between China and the Soviet Union. In the early 1960s, the United States had "probed" the level of Soviet interest in joint action against Chinese nuclear weapons facilities; now the Soviets probed what the United States' reaction would be if the USSR attacked the facilities.[4]"

 

So even during a pretty fiery period of the cold war with the U.S., the USSR was still willing to work with America against the Chinese. News to me. I was under the impression the USSR and China presented a unified front, but apparently it was only a facade hiding a potential powder keg between the two communist nations.

 

So I think your supposition, that the U.S and the USSR are at times allies, certainly makes sense.

[Jeoshua]

The whole Uranium stocks idea is certainly an interesting angle. Perhaps China, like the US, is experiencing something of a comeback in the time that this mod would be set. There is a supply line going from Yakutia to China, and therefore a decent size Chinese population in the area. They need the Uranium. For what? Well that could be answered later, but the supply lines would have to go close enough to the Baykal area for it to be included in the setting. So there is another good reason for that setting. It gives the Chinese a valid reason to be near the area, even if it's really just a rest stop along a supply line.

 

Possibly there are elements of a revolution brewing as well. Some of the people remember through stories about how the world got to the state it's in, and really don't like that the Chinese are going after a resource that was instrumental in the near-destruction of the entire planet. So they stage raids on the caravans bringing the precious Uranium ore through their lands.

 

Misdirection is always key in warfare, so the revolutionaries dress as Buryat. The tribals don't like it when they find out, since their life has remained unchanged since time immemorial and they couldn't really care less about the goings on in more "civilized" parts of the world. The tribals have no love lost for the revolutionaries, since they are bringing their villages under increasing scrutiny and attack from the nascent Chinese government.

[Doc Martiney]

 

I could see something like that happening, since in the fallout world China caries more military might than Russia, but China would have to be in pretty desperate straights to strong arm the USSR. The USSR may not have been one of the two biggest kids on the block (in the fallout world) but they were still in the top 4 or 5 world powers. Plus I'd be worried about going that route primarily because hte USSR (according to the wiki) was able to stay neutral throughout the resource wars, and frankly I think the U.S. would consider material aid on that level (oil from Lena basin) a less than neutral act.

 

It might work better for the story line and lore, if the USSR played the two sides off against each other and stayed completely out of the mix until near the end of the great war. Then bringing in your idea of China (desperately needing Russia's oil reserves) making the USSR a "offer they can't refuse". Especially if it happened after the U.S. landed power armor infantry on it's coast, just before the final big bang of the great war. With power armor infantry on their homeland, China might just be desperate enough (to get those oil reserves) to roll the dice on that longshot.

 

Perhaps USSR gave the Chinese a big FU. Or they capitulated and the U.S. was forced to disrupt access to the Lena basin which drew the USSR into the great war at the last moment. Or possibly they agreed to China's terms and were allied against the U.S. forces on the mainland. Bur regardless of the events leading up to it, they were drawn in to the final holocaust in the end. Otherwise we'd all be speaking Russian in the Mojave. I'd recommend something on the same level as the U.S. Heavily populated cities Moscow, Leningrad etc hit hard (like D.C was) but various wilderness areas escaping with comparatively little destruction (like most of the Mojave).

 

 

Playing two sides against each other could be difficult and dangerous, if you don't know how to deal with the victor in this struggle - will he be exhausted or strenghtened by treats of war and infuriated. I guess the neutrality described in the wiki was a lost two-timing game to the Russians or a very delicate equilibrium of neutrality which ultimately failed. I could think the leaders couldn't keep their integrity and were unable to choose a side until it were too late and the War flamed on the Russian soil. Or someone gave a push and backstabbed one of their "allies", only to draw the nuclear scorn, presumably from Americans. And then, packages were quickly dealt out and everyone who could apologise for a misunderstanding were burnt to ashes or buried alive.

 

 

Potentially we're talking about 150 years since the Bolshevist/Red army fought the Russian Provisional Government/White army. After that period of time there just doesn't seem like any support for a return to a Tsar could still exist.

 

You're right. A such movement couldn't emerge from nothing without a cause, after such a long time and that's what i meant with asiatic-looking "mongolian" Tsarists.

The Chinese could've arranged it to weaken Russia from inside. Spy networks, movements, guerilla know-how... KGB must be blind or the Chinese must be really good at infiltration in this case - must've been a really long-termed operation with sleeper agents in local communities. So, the objective they had is to force Russia into an alliance by diseasing and curing.

 

But after the bombs fell would be a different story. I could certainly see a resurgence of the Tsar's dynasty, with someone or several someones laying claim to the bloodline and engaged in exactly the war you describe with what is left of "official" USSR gov fragments. And potentially aided by outside groups as the white/Tsaris army was.

 

Sure. I can even imagine a faction consisting of someone of "Imperial heritage" and a quest to revealing the Chinese origin of them. Or maybe give the faction a moral ambiguity - let's say the origin is a lie, but the cause is good, in a way a monarchistic patriot could see it fit.

 

 

It puts a more concrete, detailed, strategic description of the situation the USSR is in, than my example. I can't vouch for the validity of it, since my knowledge of Russian/USSR geography is zero, and the hits for Yakutia on google are less than helpful, but it makes sense if I understand your point correctly.

 

I've got my source about Elkon from here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25D0%25AD%25D0%25BB%25D1%258C%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BD%25D1%2581%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%25D1%258F_%25D0%25B3%25D1%2580%25D1%2583%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B9

 

 

 

You know I never played FO2, so the only thing I really know about Natasha is from the wiki. But your suggestion seems reasonable. It mirrors a small a little info I read in the (real-world) wiki regarding the Sino–Soviet border conflict;

 

"Further border clashes occurred in August 1969, this time along the western section of the Sino–Soviet border in Xinjiang. Heightened tensions raised the prospect of a nuclear war between China and the Soviet Union. In the early 1960s, the United States had "probed" the level of Soviet interest in joint action against Chinese nuclear weapons facilities; now the Soviets probed what the United States' reaction would be if the USSR attacked the facilities.[4]"

 

So even during a pretty fiery period of the cold war with the U.S., the USSR was still willing to work with America against the Chinese. News to me. I was under the impression the USSR and China presented a unified front, but apparently it was only a facade hiding a potential powder keg between the two communist nations.

 

So I think your supposition, that the U.S and the USSR are at times allies, certainly makes sense.

 

About Natasha: my fault, i called her in diminuitive form of Natalia, the female player character in FO1. But as your see, the Russia-US-China was indeed a delicate "love triangle" and God knows what could've happen if it were tilted the wrong way.

 

 

Oh, and Jeoshua: well, yeah, the Uranium is the new gas of Fallout, used for cars, weaponry, batteries, mainly as power source, so it will be a delicious piece for Chinese industry, even if there's not any industry left in the nuclear ashes. Unless it's being rebuilt. By Shi, for example? As for the resistance with misdirection... Well, wouldn't it be ironic, if the former Chinese sleepers were actually grown tired of their misguided ideals? ;) And the Buryat tribes could've really biased against their role in revolution, since they've already played a significant part in The War generations ago, with Chinese sleepers in their ranks. But alas, the opinions about this "glorious past" could be also split inside the tribes... Ones would crave for it and the other will see it as a danger.

 

Please excuse me, it's late night over here, some typos or logic errors may have crept in...