Homeschooling

[Duskrider]

Awww.... how cute, another poster who clearly hasn't bothered to read what I actually said...

 

"Yes, I want to flame you" - what kind of reason is that? If I wanted to do that, you would know - I'm only here to point out the fallacies of your statements:

 

My point is that you flame me, in a sentence that makes it painfully obvious that you didn't actually bother reading my argument. You don't just accuse me in harsh words, you completely misrepresent what I was actually saying. This says to me that you have no interest in constructive debate, and just want to throw around some insults.

 

1) The reason I point out you're not qualified to talk to non-scientists is because the only language you obviously speak is university science. Just because you know more, doesn't mean you have a right to talk down to anyone who doesn't share you views (and baffle them with what you saying to them).

 

I'm not trying to baffle anyone. Trust me, everything I'm saying is at a very basic level, we're talking middle-school level biology here.

 

2) You clearly are imposing your views upon everyone else - otherwise, why start this debate in the first place?

 

Am I holding a gun to your head and demanding your concession? If not, then I am not forcing any views on you.

 

In case you didn't notice, this is a debate thread. The whole point of a debate is to convince your opponent and the audience that your side is right. Complaining that I'm arguing with you is just so incredibly absurd that I can't really say anything else in reply.

 

And if that's the case, why do it, and then take a backseat while you watch those you tried to convince earlier "flush this pathetic waste of a country down the toilet". Taking a stance like means that eventually, your so-called cushy life will be flushed away too.

 

In case you didn't notice, that comment was not entirely serious...

 

It is kind of true though, I'm not the one who's going to be hurt if people like you insist on trashing the educational system. I've already got my degree, and I'll have no problem finding a job in some other country.

 

3) What exactly are the downfalls of homeschooling, and please, share every other reason you apparently know why. Cause from what I see, the only failure you pointed out isn't as important to the average Joe as someone who is/wants to be a scientist/chemist/biologist/paleontologist/etc.

 

Again, thank you for admitting you didn't bother reading my arguments before you start attacking. If you had, you would know the answer to this question... here's a hint, read the first post in this topic. But since I'm a nice guy, I'll give you the short outline so you know what to look for:

 

1) Homeschooling is based on the premise that the average person can do the job just as well as a professional teacher. This means being qualified to teach every area, since you don't have specialized teachers to cover each field. You're on your own, you can't have a science teacher, a math teacher, an english teacher, etc.

 

2) Science is a critical subject in a complete education. Biology is a critical part of science. Evolution is necessary to understanding modern biology. Therefore any education that fails to cover evolution appropriately is inadequate.

 

3) The average person is either unwilling (due to arrogant assumption that they know better than the experts) or unable (due to lack of understanding of the material) to teach evolution.

 

 

Conclusion: the premise is false. The average person does not have this universal qualification, therefore the average homeschooled child will have gaps in their education. Homeschooling fails to live up to the standards of traditional education, and is therefore not an acceptable alternative.

 

4) If we were to impose, quote "Failing to give your child a proper education is one of the worst things you can do to them...any parents who do this should permanently lose custody of their children and be thrown in prison for child abuse", this sort of sentence, we may as well throw every other teacher in prison too, because they're not fairing any better either.

 

Yep, still haven't bothered to read what I've already said on the subject. I already answered this, so here's the short version: accountability.

 

A teacher who fails to give a proper education (such as by refusing to teach evolution) is punished for that failure. They can be fired from their job, and stripped of their license if the offense is serious enough.

 

All I'm saying is the parent should be held to a similar standard. In this case, you lose the equivalent of your teaching license: your "license" to raise your children. Prison would only be for the most serious offenses (such as teaching your children to be racists, etc), but it's not entirely unfair to suggest it... after all, the teacher is merely incompetent. The parent is incompetent and makes the choice to refuse to accept a better alternative.

 

5) If I recall, I never said I didn't want to learn - in fact I never said anything to of the sort. So, please don't make me say things I never said.

 

Your own words:

 

last time I checked, math and science weren't on my list of things to do before getting a job. While math is important for everyone, science is less important for the common person to learn (unless as I said they wanted to get into science-related fields at university/college). There is no critical need to learn science (math perhaps), so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

I believe that speaks for itself.

 

5) By all means, make you children become exactly what you are - as far as I can tell, they'd just be as arrogant and indifferent. And while my children are being welcomed by the community, you're children are being loathed by everyone else (as you are now)

 

See, there are two little problems with what you just said:

 

1) I'm not loathed by everyone else. I have plenty of friends and people who like/respect me.

 

2) Even if I am loathed by people like you, who cares. You're just the guy making my hamburger on my lunch break from my $100k/year job.

 

6) Why am I suddenly the reason the world laughs at you? I'm a Canadian, you're an American, you don't need a science degree to figure out why.

 

Notice I said "you" in the general sense. You are a representative of a group of people with incredibly harmful ideas that are trashing our educational system. Whether you specifically have any effect on the US, your ideas are one of the biggest problems we have right now.

 

7) *sigh* You still fail to see that what you're proposing is nothing short of communism; I mean, c'mon, what exactly are you trying to prove, hmm? If we were to impose mandatory learning, everyone would be of the same mindset, and it wouldn't be good for anything really, because creativeness, free-thinking, and imagination would cease to exist. As I said, we'd all be mindless robots.

 

The problems with what you just said:

 

1) Not only is this not at all communism (please tell me where I included any form of weath redistribution, state-controlled economy, etc in my proposal), but saying it's nothing short of communism is a meaningless statement. Just saying something is related to communism doesn't make it automatically wrong.

 

2) In the case of basic factual knowledge, people being of the same mindset is exactly how it should be. What you're claiming is the equivalent of saying that if we force people to learn that 2+2=4, we kill their creativity if we don't let them pick alternative methods of addition. This is obviously NOT the case, plenty of people are creative while still keeping that basic knowledge. I would be one of them... besides science and engineering, I have a strong interest in philosophy and art.

[Duskrider]

Split into two posts because of the ****ing stupid quote limit:

 

8) You clearly have no idea about what is actually going on in the world - last time I checked, math and science weren't on my list of things to do before getting a job. While math is important for everyone, science is less important for the common person to learn (unless as I said they wanted to get into science-related fields at university/college). There is no critical need to learn science (math perhaps), so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

 

Ok, economics 101: take a look at the world right now. See India, China, etc? All those countries with huge amounts of un-skilled labor, and no minimum wage laws? Guess where all the manufacturing and similar jobs are going to be going (and in fact are going right now). In the near future, in countries like the US and Canada you will have three main categories of jobs:

 

1) Low-end service jobs. This is the kind of stuff that just can't move overseas, but doesn't require any real skills. For example, retail cashiers, cooks, bus drivers, etc. There will be plenty of these, but they don't pay very well.

 

2) Mid-range skilled labor that can't move. Think stuff like construction, where you need some skills, but not a university-level education. It pays better than the first class, but there's a limited need for this.

 

3) High-end technical jobs. Science, engineering, etc. This is where the future is. No matter how globalization goes, there will always be a demand for experts... we do the hard work, we get all the money. And in a world increasingly dependent on advanced technology, there's plenty of competition for our knowledge. The problem here is a good education is absolutely critical. All that math and science you hate? Better get used to it, or you're going to be laughed out of the admissions office when you try to go for this kind of career.

 

 

Since you and your children are clearly aiming for the first category, keep this in mind: I like small fries and a large vanilla milkshake with my hamburger.

[1Prelude]

Your responses, Dusky, are entirely theoretical, and silly to boot. Really, I expected more from someone so verbose.

 

Let's not get carried away with irrelevant particulars. Since your whole argument against homeschooling revolves around evolution, let's talk about it.

If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt evolution is 100% accurate, then...erm, no, your anti homeschool position still holds no water. However, let's humour you and pretend that the effectiveness of homeschooling hinges upon the origin of man. Give me your facts, point form, with as few words as possible. Please.

Take your time, I want you to provide an airtight list of indisputable proofs.

[Duskrider]

Your responses, Darky, are entirely theoretical, and silly to boot. Really, I expected more from someone so verbose.

 

Let's not get carried away with irrelevant particulars. Since your whole argument against homeschooling revolves around evolution, let's talk about it.

If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt evolution is 100% accurate, then...erm, no, your anti homeschool position still holds no water. However, let's humour you and pretend that the effectiveness of homeschooling hinges upon the origin of man. Give me your facts, point form, with as few words as possible. Please.

Take your time, I want you to provide an airtight list of indisputable proofs.

 

Concession accepted.

 

The mere fact that you are asking for "airtight, indisputable proofs" is airtight indisputable proof that you have absolutely no idea how the scientific method works. We don't even have airtight indisputable proofs for the theory of "bacteria cause disease" or even the theory of gravity!

 

 

If you are a good example of the average person's science qualifications, you prove my point beyond any doubt: the average person is NOT qualified to do the job as well as a professional teacher.

[ResidentWeevil2077]

Split into two posts because of the ****ing stupid quote limit:

 

8) You clearly have no idea about what is actually going on in the world - last time I checked, math and science weren't on my list of things to do before getting a job. While math is important for everyone, science is less important for the common person to learn (unless as I said they wanted to get into science-related fields at university/college). There is no critical need to learn science (math perhaps), so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

 

Ok, economics 101: take a look at the world right now. See India, China, etc? All those countries with huge amounts of un-skilled labor, and no minimum wage laws? Guess where all the manufacturing and similar jobs are going to be going (and in fact are going right now). In the near future, in countries like the US and Canada you will have three main categories of jobs:

 

1) Low-end service jobs. This is the kind of stuff that just can't move overseas, but doesn't require any real skills. For example, retail cashiers, cooks, bus drivers, etc. There will be plenty of these, but they don't pay very well.

 

2) Mid-range skilled labor that can't move. Think stuff like construction, where you need some skills, but not a university-level education. It pays better than the first class, but there's a limited need for this.

 

3) High-end technical jobs. Science, engineering, etc. This is where the future is. No matter how globalization goes, there will always be a demand for experts... we do the hard work, we get all the money. And in a world increasingly dependent on advanced technology, there's plenty of competition for our knowledge. The problem here is a good education is absolutely critical. All that math and science you hate? Better get used to it, or you're going to be laughed out of the admissions office when you try to go for this kind of career.

 

 

Since you and your children are clearly aiming for the first category, keep this in mind: I like small fries and a large vanilla milkshake with my hamburger.

Not only am I the guy that's fixing you your lunch, I'm also the guy that fixes your car, builds your house, builds you schools, and everything else you seem to take for granted. What you said in point 2. contradicts what you said about India/China, as there is clearly a need for every kind of job in developing countries.

 

Besides, why would I want to go down the same path as you? I'm not science-minded as you are nor as "smart", and I'm not afraid to admit that. BTW, we don't have to build you up so you can step all over us - we don't have to fix your car, build your house, build your schools, or serve you your lunch.

[1Prelude]

Give me your facts. If I am wrong in believing that evolution is a lame excuse to discount some sort of interference, than prove it. Stop stalling, get to it.

 

Edited to remove religious references. Please if this is to stay open you must refrain from religion completely.

 

If I lock this is it done and opening a new thread will constitute a violation of the forum rules.

 

Buddah

[Guest]

Out of curiosity, Dusk, have you ever had any contact with any sort of homeschooling curriculum? Much of your objection to homeschooling seems to rest on the fact that the parents are not qualified to teach all of the subjects. However, homeschooling curriculum is designed in such a way that parents need not have a college degree in every subject to teach it...and to teach it effectively. For subjects such as higher mathematics, there are solutions manuals, help lines, different books that explain things different ways. For the sciences there are plenty of books to choose from, many that are on the level with college textbooks. (Teaching from college textbooks isn't unheard of, either). If a homeschooled student has trouble in one subject, there are nearly limitless options for helping him along until he understands it. There is absolutely no need for homeschooled parents to have specialized degrees in every subject in order to give their children an excellent education.

[IamBatosai]

I would just like to point out that I am homeschooled. Because the public schools could not give me anything more complicated to do than 6th grade back when I was in 2nd/3rd grade. I was already doing algebra level math. Already in middle school level biology. Middle school language arts. All before I was even in 5th grade. The school I went to told me that they would not give me anything harder to do because they didn't have the materials to.

 

Also, of all the teachers in my school district. Maybe 1/8 of them have a teaching degree. But I doubt that many actually do. Its pathetic. We get people who read straight out of the book. And when you ask them a question they can't answer it. Because they don't know anything about what they are teaching.

[Duskrider]

1Prelude, I've made it quite clear that religion is not part of this debate. It's not really relevant, and it's against forum rules... all you're going to accomplish is getting the thread locked. So I will not answer your question. Feel free to ask a different one that does not involve religion.

 

To quote my first post in this thread:

 

Evolution is a scientific theory, and completely independent of religion. Many people accept the theory without compromising their religious beliefs, and there are plenty of qualified science teachers who are religious. And I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who are not qualified to teach evolution (just look at Lysenkoism for one example)

 

The issue of qualification to teach is completely independent of one's religion (or lack of religion).

 

 

 

And I'm not stalling. Your (first, not the one in the reported post) question was simply nonsense, if you actually understand how the scientific method works. It's the equivalent of you demanding proof that square circles exist.

 

==================================

Out of curiosity, Dusk, have you ever had any contact with any sort of homeschooling curriculum? Much of your objection to homeschooling seems to rest on the fact that the parents are not qualified to teach all of the subjects. However, homeschooling curriculum is designed in such a way that parents need not have a college degree in every subject to teach it...and to teach it effectively. For subjects such as higher mathematics, there are solutions manuals, help lines, different books that explain things different ways. For the sciences there are plenty of books to choose from, many that are on the level with college textbooks. (Teaching from college textbooks isn't unheard of, either). If a homeschooled student has trouble in one subject, there are nearly limitless options for helping him along until he understands it. There is absolutely no need for homeschooled parents to have specialized degrees in every subject in order to give their children an excellent education.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that these resources exist. In fact, I conceded this fact a long time ago.

 

The problem is again, accountability. Use of these resources is not mandatory. While a traditional teacher can be fired and/or have their license revoked for failure to use the available resources, a parent does not have the same mandatory standards to follow.

 

The problem here is you're addressing an entirely separate issue. My claim is:

The average person is not qualified to homeschool their children, and there is no accountability to hold the failures responsible for their failures.

 

NOT

 

No person is qualified to do the job.

Like I said before, when things go perfectly, ANY method works, homeschooling, public schools, private schools, independent study, whatever. The issue is how to make sure it works, and hold the failures accountable.

 

 

============================================

Not only am I the guy that's fixing you your lunch, I'm also the guy that fixes your car, builds your house, builds you schools, and everything else you seem to take for granted. What you said in point 2. contradicts what you said about India/China, as there is clearly a need for every kind of job in developing countries.

 

The key difference here is that while highly-skilled technical jobs are fairly mobile (I can pretty easily work in any country I feel like, if the demand is there), the moderately-skilled labor I addressed in point #2 is NOT. Nobody is going to hire a carpenter from the US to build a house in India, they're going to do the job with local labor. Same with manufacturing and stuff.

 

Besides, why would I want to go down the same path as you? I'm not science-minded as you are nor as "smart", and I'm not afraid to admit that. BTW, we don't have to build you up so you can step all over us - we don't have to fix your car, build your house, build your schools, or serve you your lunch.

 

You'd want to go down the same path as me because you want to succeed in life. You dismissed the idea of learning just for the sake of knowing the truth (IOW "evolution isn't practical knowledge"), so what we're left with is practical value. And if you want an education that actually gives you practical benefits, you go down my path of math and science.

 

And what are you going to do, go on strike? Here's a hint for you: you can be replaced very easily, even if you can afford to refuse to do your job. I could easily do your job with a bit of training. But you can't do mine without a university degree and professional license.

[ResidentWeevil2077]

I would just like to point out that I am homeschooled. Because the public schools could not give me anything more complicated to do than 6th grade back when I was in 2nd/3rd grade. I was already doing algebra level math. Already in middle school level biology. Middle school language arts. All before I was even in 5th grade. The school I went to told me that they would not give me anything harder to do because they didn't have the materials to.

 

Also, of all the teachers in my school district. Maybe 1/8 of them have a teaching degree. But I doubt that many actually do. Its pathetic. We get people who read straight out of the book. And when you ask them a question they can't answer it. Because they don't know anything about what they are teaching.

As I had pointed out earlier, if we were to actually jail parents for not teaching their children "properly" on the basis that's it's considered child abuse, we should also jail the teachers too.