Beginner skin npc modder advice

[Sallyo]

Hello All,

 

I hope I am asking in the right forum. This isnt a trouble shooting type question, more of a how to.. I have asked around and I have been pointed in directions of mods or resources for what I want to do.. it is still not answering my question.

 

I want to enhance or make my own skin for a custom race or fantasy type of npc. I have been pointed to Roberts body replacer etc.. Those files already have the skin painted on. What I need is the basic mapping template to start from scratch. I dont believe roberts has that when I looked at his files. I could be wrong as I am in a rush caring for someone with cancer and a recent knee surgery. So I need to stick close to home while having some down time to get my creative urges out. I am constantly interrupted and have really tried to take the time to track down the resources I need.

Usually when you upload a skin to Gimp, you can see all the layers. I am not seeing this happen with many of the files for Oblivion or skyrm.

Usually you can make a wonderful skin, getting it to sit right on a mesh model is another whole nightmare.

If anyone has a basic Howto guide or can show me where I can get the basic templates I would very much appreciate it. What I work with is usually the template by Robin Wood. I have never made anything for Elder scrols before and I know it has to have its own special mapping system. http://www.robinwood.com/Catalog/Technical/SL-Tuts/SLDownloads/UVMaps/SL-Avatar-Head-1024.jpg

[DrakeTheDragon]

Hmm, there's quite some things to clear up here it seems.

 

First off, every head or body mesh has its very own unique UV grid layout, similar to the thing you've shown above, but none of the ones I know have a layout even remotely coming close to that one.

 

The Vanilla bodies have their layout, Robert's Bodies have their's, Exnem/HGEC have another again, and so on and so on.

 

 

If you want to have only the grid to work with as a mask/layer for example, the easiest way is to open the NIF file in NifSkope, right-click the NiTriShape/Strips node of the mesh you want to make the texture for, select "Texture > Export Template", choose a file name and folder to save to, the file type will always be Targa (.tga) I think, and as UV maps are only relative (from 0 to 1 in all dimensions) regardless of an actual texture's resolution you also need to select a square resolution to export it in (of course it's advisable to choose the exact same resolution you want for the final skin texture to have here).

 

The other options can be neglected. In Oblivion there's always only 1 set of UVs (the pulldown will only contain "set 0"), and the wrapping type usually is only "wrap" (haven't encountered any other so far, but at least definitely not for body meshes). So just leave these as they are.

 

This will give you a black on white (or blue on white?) grid not dissimilar to the one above, and if you want to use it as a layer or something, you simply delete the white parts or however you want to go about it.

 

 

I haven't yet, in my 10+ years of membership in this community, ever encountered a resource release or anything of that kind with only plain empty UV grid layers or image files. So you'll very likely have to export these yourself every time you need some.

 

Also, Oblivion texture files (a Direct Draw proprietary format, DDS) do not have any layers. They aren't project files for graphics apps but readily-rendered, performance optimized, and often also compressed, textures right for use inside the game and only for that. For what it's worth, it is even a little unwise to open an existing DDS file with your graphics app, edit it, and save it again into DDS, because when it's a compressed one the compression will accumulate and the image quality reduce every time you open and save it again.

 

I think the texture artists don't usually release their uncompressed work files at all but always only the final rendered DDS file for use in the game. So it's not surprising you haven't found any of what you're talking above for Oblivion so far. The cases in which I saw an author release his templates along with the mod I can easily count on one hand alone.

 

 

For reference here's some 512px UV maps of the common Oblivion female bodies and body mods, so you can see how significantly different they are (Bab, HGEC, Robert Female, TFF, Vanilla, in that order):

http://orig11.deviantart.net/c1ac/f/2016/312/1/e/upperbody_bab_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq1qk.jpghttp://orig04.deviantart.net/be6f/f/2016/312/c/0/upperbody_hgec_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq1qf.jpghttp://orig13.deviantart.net/a862/f/2016/312/6/2/upperbody_rf_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq1qa.jpghttp://orig11.deviantart.net/6c25/f/2016/312/7/4/upperbody_tff_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq1px.jpghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/dd70/f/2016/312/d/e/upperbody_vanilla_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq1pu.jpg

 

I needed to export these all before for my Argonian Beautification, for refitting the new skin textures to just about every body/body mod in existence back then... though I can tell you that was a task I'll never undergo again as long as I still have my sanity. It was a real nightmare at times. Certain bodies have so weird UV maps, the polygons in the map aren't even proportional to the polygons on the mesh. It's like every polygon in the map is of a different resolution and aspect ratio, but at the borders they all still need to align somehow.

 

When you're done and your skin texture's looking absolutely fine and smooth in the file, but on the mesh it will be horribly warped and distorted in many areas, you'll be having a hard time warping and stretching it in the texture file as well so it's closely the same distortion as on the mesh. I don't know how those artists originally created their textures for this, but perhaps it only worked because they were doing smooth skin without any structure that would show the stretch, but when you try mapping for example scales to it, welcome to texturing hell.

 

(But that's only my own personal opinion by experience now.)

 

 

With heads you're a little more lucky, as I for one only know of 2 really different models so far. Creating completely new head meshes from scratch together with their complete facial shape and animation morphs in the EGM and TRI files isn't a task many modders have undergone at this point. There are a few who shifted some vertices around on the 2 base models I mentioned, but for most of these the UV map layout itself has never changed.

 

These are the 2 primary maps I know (Vanilla and Head06, to be precise):

http://orig11.deviantart.net/139e/f/2016/312/2/9/head_vanilla_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq3a7.jpghttp://orig04.deviantart.net/9b87/f/2016/312/0/a/head_head06_uvmap_by_drakethedragon_1980-danq3aj.jpg

 

But keep in mind everything inside the mouth, the ears, and the hair are separate meshes with their own separate UV maps again.

 

 

Well, I hope all this helps at least a little.

[Sallyo]

Thank you Drake!

 

I can always count on you! I hear you about texturing hell! Its same for the programs I have done t for in the past. You have to manipulate your shape in game to make the skin or texture "Seat" itself right. Unless you have one of those fancy 3-d model type maya programs where you can paint directly on.... That would just mess me up or make it harder I would think. I cant stand Roberts template.

What I was going to to was enhance a skin on my companion. I was going to put the uv map under it then turn the skin's transparency down and do some layering. Unfortunately that means me chopping my uv maps up and pasting them piece by piece and blending them down UGH...

What is good.... Once I do this this and save as Tga I will have a "Base" in which to work with.

May I ask for the link in which you got Roberts Uv map from?

The one you posted here is so dark I can hardly tell where the knees n stuff are.

 

What I might do, Is very carefully replace roberts uv map with the pieces of my map which are easier to see and release them on the site for people to use.

[DrakeTheDragon]

But like I wrote above there simply is no such link. I know of no person who ever uploaded one of these. I exported these templates myself again right today before I replied with them in the post above. I gave you step-by-step instructions on how to do that as well:

 

If you want to have only the grid to work with as a mask/layer for example, the easiest way is to open the NIF file in NifSkope, right-click the NiTriShape/Strips node of the mesh you want to make the texture for, select "Texture > Export Template", choose a file name and folder to save to, the file type will always be Targa (.tga) I think, and as UV maps are only relative (from 0 to 1 in all dimensions) regardless of an actual texture's resolution you also need to select a square resolution to export it in (of course it's advisable to choose the exact same resolution you want for the final skin texture to have here).

The other options can be neglected. In Oblivion there's always only 1 set of UVs (the pulldown will only contain "set 0"), and the wrapping type usually is only "wrap" (haven't encountered any other so far, but at least definitely not for body meshes). So just leave these as they are.

This will give you a black on white (or blue on white?) grid not dissimilar to the one above, and if you want to use it as a layer or something, you simply delete the white parts or however you want to go about it.

The ones I posted were intentionally kept small (512px), so I could post them all on the same page. As like I said you have to decide on the actual resolution at the time when you export, scaling up or down an existing UV map to fit your own existing texture is also not at all necessary. Just export a new map yourself and enter the resolution you wish it to have.

 

 

But don't hate on Robert's UV layout so much. From all the ones I know it is the only one that's got no distortion or disproportion between the polygons inside the map and on the mesh. That is telling something for the quality of Robert's work I think. Never had an easier body or cleaner structure to work with so far. When your texture's smooth inside your file, then it's also perfectly smooth when wrapped around the body mesh, is something most other bodies honestly cannot say about their layouts.

 

 

I wonder from your description what exactly it is you're trying to do here, but I'll see it when it's done I think... and it doesn't sound all too dissimilar from what I was doing with the IABT resource back when creating Argonian Beautification, cutting the Vanilla layout textures apart and recompiling/blending/layering them together to fit the other bodies' maps, until the result was looking in any way at least sort of satisfactory to me. I'm sort of used to that task by now I must admit.

 

 

edit: Forgot to mention, but you can of course also export UV grids from inside Blender (or likely any modeling app out there), as the Blender scripts have tools for that as well.

[Sallyo]

Aww Im SOrry, I have such a busy day, when I get on here I am so so tired. You are right. those were the directions that seemed so complicated they just went Whoosh right over my head.

I do have nif skope and I will try your instructions Step by step. What I did this morning just to see if I could pull it off was take the transparency down and blend the two skins together. I hate to do that because Some people would say thats ripping off someone elses work. In this case you have to import something to work on to get started so whatever ha ha

 

Yes after looking closely.. you are right..Roberets has the most clear mapping system^^ hee hee Your always right Drake^^ Such a knight in shining armor. Your not a dragon your an Angel ^^

 

What is so overwhelming about roberts is all the different sizes. He also has types like: Skinny Muscular etc.. If you are trying to upgrade a npc mod that someone made and it doesnt say which Exact roberts mesh he used..that could be trouble and a complete waste of time and effort. Thats why I wanted the original maps from oblivion not roberts or the eye candy or Rens etc.

I have no clue how to start making meshes in blender and I dont really want to go down that rabbit hole.

Alas again I am runing behind schedule today and have work piling up Drake.

I do so so much appreciate your time and I will come back and read this through a couple of times. I wish you a wonderful evening^^

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sallyo

[Sallyo]

Before and after shots. I did this just using an overlay and matching the color. I dunno if its even going to line up right. It was fun^^ I opened up the CS and couldnt figure out how to export the new textures to the npc. Maybe I have to do this in Nif scope which I thought I had OPS.. I have a DDS viewer.. not nif scope..

 

So maybe I have to try to apply my new texture on the roberts body in Nif scope first then upload the whole thing to the CS? Hee hee Please dont be mad.. I am sure you are pulling your hair out by now. I am trying to learn on the limited time I have. Ijust wish Modstien would get back on here and finish up Version 3.0 of this mod.. Alas its been over 2 years now.. we are all worried and wondered what happened : (

 

http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z472/Aluviel7/BampA.jpghttp://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z472/Aluviel7/BampA.jpg

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sallyo

[Sallyo]

been trying this........

 

http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php?title=How_to_create_new_re-textured_items&oldid=1187

 

They totally skipped over how to import the next textures into nif scope and then into the cs?? Soo confusing :P *dies*

[DrakeTheDragon]

Ah, don't worry, I'm not pulling my hair out so easily. I'm not an angle, no, and no knight in shining armor either. My dragon is, and I'm just a mere human trying to be more like him. But they do say I'd be having "an angle's patience", so it's not too unfitting.

 

I recall having to walk one particular individual through an actually rather simple task, step-by-step, as usual, for the length of 2 whole months with daily conversations, and they had the attention span of only ever reading the first line alone then skipping the rest, so I had to repeat myself over and over again endlessly... but we did succeed in the end, and I wasn't going the least bit mental throughout the process. :happy:

 

With me the only dumb questions are questions not asked, and it's not being stupid not to "know" a thing, it's only stupid not to want to "learn" it. I'll never loose my patience regardless though. And I know where you're coming from with being too busy to read into responses too deeply or to reply yourself in every detail right away. My job's doing the same to me. I'm never going to hold this against one ever.

 

That said, I'm quite sure I'm not always right, but when I myself am unsure about something, I'll make sure it is known when I respond. And when you see a real definitive answer from me, no if's or but's or conditionals, you can almost bet your monthly wages on it being true, as I wouldn't give it as a definitive answer otherwise. But please don't do, chances always are I'm still wrong regardless, although I admit it's really highly unlikely. :sweat:

 

 

Now, point by point...

 

Yes, Robert's does have a couple of variants indeed, although I must say HGEC and other Exnem derivatives have exceptionally more (what with all the bust sizes and then the super-special unnatural extreme types?), but those do all still have the exact same UV map layout. One Robert's Male texture will always fit all body types.

 

The Vanilla Oblivion skin textures are nothing to really work with. The difference between the bland old Vanilla bodies and the many fancy body mods is way too huge. It begins with there being 1 texture file per body part with Vanilla, whereas most, if not all, body mods have only 1 full-body covering seamless texture that's used by all body parts at once. That's why most custom races will never work on Vanilla bodies, or items made for them, as their skin textures support only the 1 full-body part and the rest will then either be back at Imperial skin or just plain purple instead.

 

I did have success in re-compiling a set of Vanilla layout Argonian skin textures into full-body textures for just about every other body, but it's not exactly something you should do too often, really... in other words it drove me nuts, to be honest. :wacko:

 

 

The tutorial you were following is for creating retextures for items. And while most of it is definitely related to what you're up to now, one most important part of it is not.

 

Items have their respective textures referred to inside their NIF files, that's right. Bodies, however, have not. As you might know, there's only 1 set of body parts per gender which is used by "all" races at the same time. Setting these NIF files up so they only refer 1 single race's textures is never going to work. Thus the game engine is hardcoded to treat every mesh with material "skin" (case-insensitive) as a body part and apply the game's skin shader to it instead. It will analyze the mesh's "name" for any keywords giving away what body texture slot to use:

 

"upperbody"/"arms", "lowerbody"/"legs", "hand", "foot", "tail" are the keywords I know respectively,

":" can be used as starting a remark, so the engine will use only the keyword but the "viewer" can see additional information given about the nature of the mesh,

for example "foot:upperbody" is not a rare thing to be found in body mods' body part NIF files, telling the game to use the foot texture of the race but telling the viewer that it is meant to be the upperbody still.

 

And yes, most body mods use only the foot texture for covering the whole body. It's the least likely to show conflicts when you accidentally happen to equip Vanilla shoes or boots instead, which would then sport the wrong texture on the little skin they show, the whole body wrapped around one foot.

 

 

So, yeah, don't bother much with the NIF files of bodies or heads in your specific case. Just open the mod the race you're editing comes from with the CS, go to the Race record and inside there change the entries pointing to the body part skin textures or face textures to point to your's. Or, alternatively, make it so your new improved textures "overwrite"/"replace" the original files. And everything will work.

 

Oh, and because every texture in Oblivion will require a Normalmap (those files with the same name as the texture but ending on "..._n.dds" instead) to go along with it, also don't forget to at least keep the original mod's old normalmaps in place or your bodies will turn pitch black in game instead.

 

I can walk you through creating a new detailed normalmap from your new skin textures as well, but my approach to go about it is not exactly high class or even the right thing to do, so maybe I'm not the best source of advice in that particular part of texturing regard.

 

I do know though that just trying to combine the normalmaps the same way you did with the textures is not going to work right off the bat. They need to be "merged" in a slightly different way, as this blue-green-red color-coded map can't just be blended by either transparency or mask without leading to dissatisfying results.

 

 

That's some very interesting skin texture for sure you have there. Can't wait to see screenshots of the results inside the game. :cool:

[Sallyo]

Hi Hi Drake!!

 

Thank you for your patience!

 

 

 

The tutorial you were following is for creating retextures for items. And while most of it is definitely related to what you're up to now, one most important part of it is not.

 

Ha ha Yes.. it was just missing the mark.. It did sort of help me get more comfortable with the whole mod language and names for the programs..

 

I noticed that everything is labeled "Foot" when your trying to look at the original files in the data folder.. Thats just lazy! Why Did the ES folks do that??!!??

I cant believe they did that! I can see Why creators dont want to take the chance of making duplicates that dont show up because they were renaming the file to "Upper torso" or "Lower body" . I saw they too were still calling the .dds file "foot" I was thinking.. Geesh thats Lazy or baka... Now I realize... its a programming issue... If the program recognizes the letter "N" for Normal so be it. So I will have to go back rename some files on those .dds I made.. Kinda scary..

 

Thats really good to know about roberts mapping working on most bodies despite some of the crazy shapes out there. I think I will just stick to doing the over lay thing for now until I learn how to safely import them into the CS. I really Really dont want to import them in just to find out they dont fit right and then Im stuck and I have ruined my game.

 

 

o, yeah, don't bother much with the NIF files of bodies or heads in your specific case. Just open the mod the race you're editing comes from with the CS, go to the Race record and inside there change the entries pointing to the body part skin textures or face textures to point to your's. Or, alternatively, make it so your new improved textures "overwrite"/"replace" the original files. And everything will work.

 

I think I read somewhere if you go up to "Character" on the menu thats where you can put your custom textures on an Npc? It shouldnt be a permanent thing until you hit "Save" right?

 

I might just wait til i have finished the Mod then wreck havock on it.

 

Another thing I am wondering.. Just how different could the skyrm creation set be from the Construction set? couldnt you just import your textures and meshes into the creation set under the extenstion file name it wants? Most photo shops or Graphics Design programs have extentions to save to, that most other programs can read.. Or I hope they do :tongue:.

If I can pull this off I want to at least get the texture of my companion in Skyrm where he will be with me always. hahaahh Im phyco :tongue: You Noticed his arms right? Hes sort of a Draconic type of Character.. Maybe thats why you and I get along so well Mr. Drake ^^

 

Thank you again for your time. Its our most valuable priceless thing we have in life. Trust me.. I have been snapped at or people have gotten snippy with me over just 1 question when it comes to skyrm.. That leads me to believe ES really screwed up when they made that game... People are super touch about it..

Have a wonderful evening Drake and thank you again!!

 

Ohh your work is super good too! just in case you ever wanted those files just Pm me and I will give them to you.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sallyo