Punishment in school?

[freddycashmercury]

Oh no, I respect your opinion, my friend! I was just stating my position as you stated yours. People can take it or leave it as they may.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On topic: Ummm.... I'm homeschooled. Yeah. I was in public school for a couple of years, though. I think that punishment in school only works on those already inclined towards good behavior. That's already been said, but that is how I feel.

[Lord Slyther]

Oh no, I respect your opinion, my friend! I was just stating my position as you stated yours. People can take it or leave it as they may.

 

Ditto.

[DecalMirror]

Wow, that's a narrow minded statement if I ever heard one... and other Vagrant's good points..

I realize that this issue is not so black and white: at sixth grade I had one bully. The meanest of them, if I have to say, but year forward and he's my very best friend. However my thought was pointed to the thread's actual question: Does punishments have any affect? I have seen that the punishments are not the things that changes people's attitudes. What does the change is that you already said, social pressure and similar things. The punishments may cause the "bad guy" stop bullying some particular target, but they won't change his attitude.

[Lord Slyther]

Wow, that's a narrow minded statement if I ever heard one... and other Vagrant's good points..

I realize that this issue is not so black and white: at sixth grade I had one bully. The meanest of them, if I have to say, but year forward and he's my very best friend. However my thought was pointed to the thread's actual question: Does punishments have any affect? I have seen that the punishments are not the things that changes people's attitudes. What does the change is that you already said, social pressure and similar things. The punishments may cause the "bad guy" stop bullying some particular target, but they won't change his attitude.

 

Even mine was worse. In my childhood, he always picked on me for no reason at all. I was just a little guy way back then. Now I'm a young man, and hoping to get revenge one day, which means kick his ass, because I believe he deserves it, but it ain't worth it. I hate the kid so much nowadays, and I can never forgive him. Plus, if I berserk charge right at him, he will get knocked down, and the police might get involved, and arrest me for assault. It ain't worth it, but I hate him also...

[Xeniorn]

I'm sorry, Lord Slyther, if my words in any way made you feel as if I disapprove your standpoint. Your view on the matter is as true as mine, as there are as much people that abuse the punishing and use it where and when not necessary, as the people who apply not-physical punishing in a bad way, and they both give the same result, a person that functions worse than it should.

 

I was just trying to point out that the absence of physical punishment doesn't and cannot always work, and that both methods have an area of application. And regardless of my opinion, I respect your own and think it as equal to mine.

 

There's just one problem I see with your example. Grounding the kid is only possible with relatively good children. If, hypothetically, your kid were to run away when grounded, steal your money when deprived of allowance, well you get the point, in that situation what would you do? We're talking about a kid that's not old enough to have any but the lowest degree of understanding morality and reasoning. Or you do believe that you could teach a child to think in a reasonable way much earlier than, well, than it is normal and common? Please, explain me what your methods with a problematic child would be, so I can understand. Because, what I've seen in life, nice methods work with kids that have developed a sense of authority, but how would you instill that first sense of authority without using physical punishment? The only alternatives I can think of are locking up in the room, food deprivation, all the indirect physical and psychical ways to affect the child, which I believe are far worse than a little spanking.

 

Once again, I'm just interested in your opinion, I'm not trying to disapprove your ways.

 

And please, there should be differentiation between punishment and torment. Torment is... something else, I believe you do know the difference and you just used it in the wrong way by accident or to make a stronger impression.

[Lord Slyther]

God didn't put us on this Earth to hate each other. That's one thing I believe most people don't understand. Seriously, people need to think about how pain feels, and how violence effects their life. Nobody should break the law. However, there are very few crimes on this planet.

 

Now, my beliefs on why I think spanking is wrong....

 

Yes, torture, and no food, no water should be an acceptable punishment, neither is spanking. What I would do with a troublesome child is take away his game boy for an example. Locking his thing in the closet. If he continues to misbehave, then I will take away his possessions in his room, nothing there but just his bed, and his clothes. Maybe I could send him in his room for a day, or maybe 2 hours. Maybe 5. This offends me to see someone get spanked.

 

I see spanking as a abusive punishment because it's pain. A huge pain in the ass. For real. It could bruise your child from ever sitting, and makes him hate you if he sees the way I do. That is why most teens had enough of their parent's bull crap. They run away, because they don't like living with them anymore. It hurts them. Well, most of them. Not everybody. You see? This is an example on how you might lose your child. If you abuse him too much, he will run away, and start thinking 'Who are they to push me around?!', and something like that. So, if you think my statement is wrong, then you really need to think how much pain it is.

 

My reason said, because I don't see it like most of you do, I may take away stuff and lock them up, but I'm not gonna spank my child or let him starve to death.

 

Even if I had a kid who is a total jackass, I would say 'To hell with you then.', and throw him to C.A.S.. However, I don't trust these people anymore, because they lead me into hell like 2 times. Even the second time, it was a slave home, and I'm pretty pissed at the turkey who tortured me, but if I ever see him again, I will call the cops, or f*** him up, using a hammer, aiming for his legs, kicking him in the nuts, and scream and berserk violently, beating the living hell outta him. I don't want to do that, but if he gets too crazy, I would have no choice, because he would test my patience too much. I'm not falling into that hell hole again. I won't let myself.

[NewtC]

Hey, malchik, I have ADHD and I'm as far from a troublemaker as possible, so try not to stereotype please. :thanks:

[xenxander]

I come from an old-fashioned priest-ruled school (now I'm in college), and tough they did not actually hit us, they had all that sort of way only a priest can have to punish you. luckily I got away in time.

 

Were you talking about the sex scandals and that form of "punishment"? I hope not, but sadly that's a reputation that hampers the good priests, when the twisted ones do things like that. If you weren't meaning that specifically - sexualy abuse, then good and I will be relieved to know I misinterpreted.

 

 

Being honest, when I have kids, if a teacher hit them, I would beat the hell out of the teacher. That's my child,not theirs. But what makes it bad, is when society says it's bad for a PARENT to discipline their own children. And of course, when people have children, and don't care enough to bother getting involved in their kids' lives.

 

It was legal in that year and prior years, it isn't legal now And I am very sad to see your answer for this is just "beat the hell out of them".

 

No one should lay hand on another being. Period. It's called assault, and I SURE as hell ain't gonna allow any adult I don't know to hit me or push me around, because if they do, I will call the police on them, and sue them for assault. Same for me. If a teacher EVER layed his hands on my child, I will f***ing waste him! I won't allow people to touch my kid if I had one, and I was married with another woman. It is very wrong, and I consider spanking nowadays offensive and hostile. I will also call it assault. Who the hell do these teachers think they are to harm kids? They have no right.

 

You would waste them? This statement here is reflecting on you that you would murder someone and not care - not take one second to realize this isn't the method that should be employed. Or, that you would 'sue' them? This sounds oddly childish but so typically "American" <~~ which I find very sad (as American culture). That you consider spankings 'hostile' is your own opinion but they do work and if done properly, they teach children to behave. They taught my sister and me, they taught my cousins, and my mother and grandparents were raised very Christain <~~ I'm not bringing in religeon here, I'm just saying that they were raised very proper.

 

The teachers weren't 'harming' kids, it was punishment. But in today's world, many parents try and put 'parenting' on the teachers' heads. They don't wish to take the responsibility to dicipline, so they pawn that aspect onto the teachers, but once you take a teacher's rights to punish a child away, how then can they be expected to punish an unruly child? Teachers don't have the authority and parents don't want it (the group I'm referring to here). I saw a news flash on CNN very recently about how they had to handcuff an unruly child. She was I think 11yrs old and spoild rotten. She couldn't be detained and the school board had no authroity to punish the child and she was very wild, throwing things and yelling and screaming - the only thing they could do was detain her.

And there were so many parnets all upset and saying "oh no the poor child how could they do that to her?". I wanted to smack them, but realized that people who have that little foresight or sense really can't be taught even by a yardstick to the cranium *chuckles*

 

Well, I don't look at physical punishment at the way you do. If my child broke in and stole some stuff from someone's house, I'd ground him for 2 months. *snip*

Tell me. Do you enjoy getting abused? Do you enjoy torturing someone you love so much? Even as the jedi say. "No one deserves death, even after what they've done", but the way I see it is "Nobody deserves physical torture, even after what they've done".

 

I don't agree with your reasoning. If you believe that physical punishment is a common thing, then you can think it that way, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you. The past is a very cruel part. Even the Americans captured people from Africa, and turning them into slaves. Slavery is my enemy, same as it is in the Elder Scrolls series. The world is a bad place, but there are good parts of it. I hate the consequences that happened to kids in the past, where they were spanked in school, and I can never forgive the cruel past. Anyways, I'd rather take away my kid's favorite things away for a month rather than abuse him.

 

EDIT : Yes, the teacher has no right of touching the child of another family. He's not the teacher's kid.

 

I must say that 'grounding' a child is as about as effective as sending them to their room or putting them into a corner. It does nothing to stymie their actions, because it's a punishment with no real consequences and in this case, it's easily worked around for a child (yes I was a child once as we all were, and there are many ways to get around being grounded if you 'really' wanted to).

 

And you consider spankings 'torture'? You then have a 'very' broad definition of that word. Bill Cosbey ones said in his comic stand up, "The only time a child is honest is when they are having pain". It was funny but it has truth to it. A degree of pain leaves the memory that punishments hurt. And if a parrent is a good parrent, spankins should be sparse but still issued when needed. It hurts a parrent to spank a child but it really is with the child's best interest at heart.

I'm also sad to see you think spankings are 'abusive', but I'm actually quite surprised to see try and link spankings with slavery. :confused:

 

Even mine was worse. In my childhood, he always picked on me for no reason at all. I was just a little guy way back then. Now I'm a young man, and hoping to get revenge one day, which means kick his ass, because I believe he deserves it, but it ain't worth it. I hate the kid so much nowadays, and I can never forgive him. Plus, if I berserk charge right at him, he will get knocked down, and the police might get involved, and arrest me for assault. It ain't worth it, but I hate him also...

 

I find that your harboring of hate for so long to be quite uncivil. Your view is "the law is the law" so you won't infringe on a policeman's authority, yet that appears to be your end-all to problems; "The police will take care of it".

 

I was bullied a lot as a child (I won't get into all the details but in short it was EXCESSIVE, EVERY year of elementary and middle school), but what happened? I grew up and grew wiser. I don't hate those who did it now. I don't particularly 'like' them or would want to have tea and crumpets with them on a luncheon, but if I saw them by a chance encounter one day, I'd just shrug and go about my business.

[Malchik]

Hey, malchik, I have ADHD and I'm as far from a troublemaker as possible, so try not to stereotype please. :thanks:

 

Where did I say having ADHD makes you a troublemaker? Undiagnosed ADHD is sometimes a reason why a child is unhappy and difficult at school and as a sufferer you must know that. It does not mean a person with ADHD becomes a troublemaker at school. In the same was I did not say every child that has an unhappy home life seeks attention by causing trouble in school. The purpose of my remark was to indicate that there are very many different causes of disruption and imagining one punishment will work for all is too simplistic.

 

The whole problem with punishment, whether in school or anywhere, is that, if it actually does anything at all, it addresses symptoms not causes. In an analogy it's like covering up spots with make up or spot cream. It is expedient but it is better if you can stop the spots appearing in the first place by changing diet or whatever. (Not always possible I do accept.)

 

There has to be punishment because, as I said before, it is the threat of punishment that acts as a deterrent to many. But I am not sure that it helps with those who don't care whether they get punished or not. For them only finding and treating the cause of their problems will help. The question is - who cares enough, has the time and the money to do it? I am not sure the UK or the US has an answer to that question. So it continues to hand out punishments, put people away, and pass the responsibility backwards and forwards between teachers, parents and governments, while attempting to dodge any flak.

 

Expecting otherwise may be Utopian but until there is a change in approach punishment remains valuable only as a deterrent. It can never work on those who are prepared to take the punishment. Telling a suicide bomber that murder is punishable by death is not going to stop them any more than you can stop a pupil who finds detention a joke from misbehaving by saying he or she will be detained.

[Xeniorn]

@Lord Slyther: Is it really true for you that you are more resistant to psychical pain than physical? I'd suffer much, much more and hold it against my parents if they made me live in my room with only bed and clothes, and I see much more potential damage to the child's psyche than physical punishment. Today, looking back on my early childhood, I have no bad feelings connected to physical punishment I received, but I still tend to frown sometimes when I remember being punished in your, "painless" way. And the form of the p.p. that I would agree to is one that doesn't count only on pain but rather on the feeling of shame that the child should feel because it "went too far" and made it so that the parent felt the need to resort to p.p.

 

I implied earlier that I do not by any means condone injuring, and beating the crap out of the kid is injuring, but using pain only as a stimulant that makes the words spoken better imprinted on his memory and to "snap" the child out of its current, defying state, is not something I would compare to torment or anything similar.

 

Just to mention something BTW, xenander, I see your views on the matter as very healthy and correct. :closedeyes: