Malchik Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 The death penalty? Surely only a few neanderthals believe in that? Nursery school childish behaviour 'I'm going to get you for that' is hardly a social example we should be aiming towards. I agree with Shakkara, society has far more responsibility to remove the causes of crime than to spend all it's time worrying about the effects. It's analogous to an individual having a disease. You will want to spend time treating the symptoms but the most important work needs to be done in eliminating the cause. Fortunately in most of western Europe that message is at last beginning to penetrate the brains of those in charge but it still has a long way to go. I believe there has been some success in inner city New York too but it does not sit so easily with the US society of the individual. Still we can all dream as ctogher says. I think we both dream of a crime free society. Sadly our ways of achieving it are diametrically opposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailo Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Still we can all dream as ctogher says. I think we both dream of a crime free society. Sadly our ways of achieving it are diametrically opposed. I think that's something we can all agree on. I would also like to kindly get back to the topic of this debate. I was wondering if any of you think it would be wrong to, more or less, force all inmates to 'donate' blood, since here in America we have this awful blood shortage and everything. Of course all the blood would be carefully screened. But I think this is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magatsu Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 My stephfather beat up my mother almost to death and was charged for atemted murder, he cried like hell in court. and a letter was sent by the judge "He is not a violent person and will not be punished" My mother had to fight to get a divorce, the god damn judge said he could go home again. If its so easy to manipulate a court god help me. Men who rape or beat/kill women and children are not men but MONSTERS, crime like that is inexusable. They shouldnt have rights at all, cause they are animals not humans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakkara Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Men who rape or beat/kill women and children are not men but MONSTERS, crime like that is inexusable. They shouldnt have rights at all, cause they are animals not humans Of course they are human, and there is a reason that they behave like that. Perhaps they had violent parents that beated them a lot, maybe they were sexually abused at a young age, maybe they were bullied all the time or got mentally/emotionally messed up for another reason. These people exist, and these people need help and deserve our compassion. Usually they are victims just like the people they have hurt. To punish them only shows that we as a society rather turn a blind eye to the problems of these people rather then give them our aid which they need so desperately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailo Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 To punish them only shows that we as a society rather turn a blind eye to the problems of these people rather then give them our aid which they need so desperately. I disagree. I believe if society turned a 'blind eye' then they would just send all their criminals to some far away island and let them fend for themselves. Then the society would also act as it was perfect, like a utopia and not even acknowledge the criminals it hides. Yes, I think helping them is a good idea if the crime commited is a minor one or if the criminal is mentally challenged. But punishment doesn't show a society giving a 'blind eye' it shows that the given society is a strong and forceful one. It shows that the society as a whole is not going to tolerate such inmoral behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 It should not only be our goal to punish crime, but also to prevent it. Not by arresting people before they commit the crime. We should exterminate the reasons for crimes. This is why we have to try to find reasons why somebody did what he did. We are not solving the problem by sending all criminals away. We should better try to help those people, to find the reason for their actions and then to help them so they could become normal people. One major reason for most crimes is poverty. When we can exterminate poverty and its consequences, a lot of crimes would be prevented. There are also other reasons like psychological instability. There we have to find out, why a person is like this. And now don't say that those people are animals or somekind of very evil person. Everyone of us could do such things! Every last one of us is capable of being a serial killer, a thief, a murderer etc. So never look down on those criminals and say that they are more evil than you, because you could also be one of them. The only difference between them and you is that something triggered something in them so they commited the crime. There are reasons why such people did what they have done and it is our duty towards the society to find those reasons, exterminate them and with this prevent crimes from happening. Those people who commited crimes are humans like us. And because of this it is our duty to heal them, to help them so they can become again what we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakkara Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 To punish them only shows that we as a society rather turn a blind eye to the problems of these people rather then give them our aid which they need so desperately. I disagree. I believe if society turned a 'blind eye' then they would just send all their criminals to some far away island and let them fend for themselves. Then the society would also act as it was perfect, like a utopia and not even acknowledge the criminals it hides. Yes, I think helping them is a good idea if the crime commited is a minor one or if the criminal is mentally challenged. But punishment doesn't show a society giving a 'blind eye' it shows that the given society is a strong and forceful one. It shows that the society as a whole is not going to tolerate such inmoral behavior. We do turn a blind eye to them by only inflicting further psychological harm upon them by sending them to prison or worse, and then let them loose into the society again, and wonder why they commit crimes again. It's unacceptable AND immoral to do such things to people. Two wrongs does not make one right, and it has nothing to do with justice at all nor does it prevent crime. And sending people away to some other place where they can live is not as bad as it may seem. They have their freedom and are no longer under the heel of the oppressive society that we have become. If a person is unwilling to reintegrate back into society then this should be an alternative they can choose. In fact I prefer to have my own piece of land in the middle of nowhere rather then living like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojlnir Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 The priblem of whether or not to punish or attempt to rehabilitate criminals is one that I, like most everyone else, stuggles with. Having never been the victim of a serious crime, nor known anyone who has, I can't say how I would react in that sort of situation. If I were in court, staring at the person who murdered my parents, I think it would be almost impossible to see that person as a victim. I understand and agree with the statement that society is responsible for crime, in that within society we can find the root causes of criminal behavior. And I also agree that we should focus the majority of our attention on identifing and solving the causal problems, rather than locking people up for years.This can't occur overnight though, because we can't snap our fingers and erase the corruption within society. I think that an increased focus on prevention, with incremental step-downs in incarceration policy is the way to go. Let's use U.S. drug policy as an example of critically flawed system. The creation of the "3 strikes, you're out" policy is the most backwards approach to the problem imaginable. Our prisons are now full to overflowing with young men who are incarcerated indefinitely for 3 drug offenses, which may be rather minor. Treatment programs are known to be generally sucessful, as are programs designed to inform kids about the problems associated with drug use...these programs are even more effective when parents participate. Just an example, but it is evident that society would rather take the easy route and lock people up, following a policy of "out of sight, out of mind."I think much of the fault with increasing crime rates lies with bad parents. There are shocking numbers of people who should just not be allowed to have kids. I am speaking figuratively here, but if you spend 2 hours at a shopping mall you will see what I mean. There needs to be some way to teach people how to parent well, and ensure that there are checks of some sort to make sure that they do it. I also think that the steady rise in teenage pregnancy is having a very negative effect on society as well. I'm sorry, but a 16 year old girl is just not ready to be a parent. But that is a whole different can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctogher Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Men who rape or beat/kill women and children are not men but MONSTERS, crime like that is inexusable. They shouldnt have rights at all, cause they are animals not humansOf course they are human, and there is a reason that they behave like that. Perhaps they had violent parents that beated them a lot, maybe they were sexually abused at a young age, maybe they were bullied all the time or got mentally/emotionally messed up for another reason. These people exist, and these people need help and deserve our compassion. Usually they are victims just like the people they have hurt. To punish them only shows that we as a society rather turn a blind eye to the problems of these people rather then give them our aid which they need so desperately. So in other words, all Adolf Hitler needed was a compassionate shoulder to cry on and a hug... ? :huh: There has to come a point where rehab is no longer an option. He has killed/murdered/raped. Spent some time baring his soul to a shrink. Realised that he wasn't really punished and that there will be no actual consequence for his actions. Hey!, why not carry on. Let's face it.. its not his fault that he has the deep need to cause harm to others. It all "society's" fault. He can blame his mother/father/brother/minister....etc.. and will receive the support and solace he feels is his due. And then, "this is how I can bring attention to my sad excuse for existence.!". I'm bored.. I know, lets go hurt someone so that the state can spend time effort and money drawing me pretty pictures of why I shouln't do things like that...... This logic defies me... he cried like hell in court. and a letter was sent by the judge "He is not a violent person and will not be punished" My mother had to fight to get a divorce, the god damn judge said he could go home again. I can sympathise with this as we had a similar experience growing up. However, we resolved this as a family by beating seven kinds of hell out of him and leaving him outside a pub... for some reason we never saw him again... Finally. If we don't take action against this cycle of abuse, and I do mean drastic action, while comforting and reinforcing negative behaviour by allowing people to blame others for their actions, be prepared to see it continue spiralling out of control. It may sound harsh and offend the sensibilities of many, but if the branch is rotten the best thing to do is cut it OFF. Not wrap it in bandages and hope that it will heal itself..... if the cure means killing every rapist/murderer/abuser out there then so be it. Once gone, the cycle will be broken. :) Sometimes the axe IS the only cure...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 In this society where we have free speech I will defend your right to say what you like but I cannot agree with a word of what you say. The day of the lynch mob should be dead! The legal system most countries have are those that the societies have selected over many years. The death penalty was removed in the UK after a long debate but the decision was what a very strong majority wanted. And that majority would not see it re-instated in this country. Specifically on topic, every member of society has the same permissions as everyone else. (I do not use the word 'rights' because they are not in fact rights). Anyone acting in a criminal capacity knows that this is an infringement of the law for which there are precise procedures and practices leading to what society as a whole believes are suitable punishments. For one in breach of the law the defining permissions change but are not non-existent. (Completely off topic. Interestingly a land where criminals were sent without any control would IMO rapidly develop its own social order and code. I wonder whether they would choose to adopt the death penalty?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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