Skyrim - not so much free choice as I hoped

[Nobody09]

There's nothing wrong with REQUIRING you to go through content they created with a gag ball in your mouth. It could even be pleasant if the content was not just totally freaking stupid lame. And it's purposeful. I've watched the RADIANT (DEVIANT) quest engine shut off quests in order to resort you into multiple passes through multiple locations.

 

The only way I can enjoy the game is to cheat at the start. Head to solitude and train destruction up. Destruction is ANNOYING AS can possibly be. If you unlock the 50 skill perk for fear in illusion it adds 10 to your fire spell. This makes for a very nasty mage as you do about 20 damage/second with a single hand on fire. And 44 damage per second duel casting. This causes a couple things. First destruction won't level at all from 20 to 30. It's dog slow because SOMETHING messes up the game counters. The computer is not able to "DEAL" with the streaming of it. It's like they don't have enough hit points to make the formula for destruction work on advancing. Setting it to master helps but not much. Then from 60 on destruction levels at an ALARMING rate mostly because you've gotten enough levels to give the foes enough hit points.

 

You see the problem here is bethesda is insane. They've gotten so wrapped up in ways to control your behavior in the game that they forgot to make it any fun. Like trainers and the training limit. It's all fine for the old leveling system in oblivion but under skyrim they give you one or two common trainers one or two expert trainers and one master trainer for EVERY SKILL in the whole game and the starting city and everything close to it is completely and utterly DEVOID of trainers. Which is the opposite of being full of master trainers that you can't use anyway. Ripping out the old mechanics that gave you something to do and replacing it with an even worse system is a mistake. They have a "dogs" guild in the starting city but it's quests usually keep you close to home until you're so deep in the muck that you can't move or get your well rested bonus back without completing it. I'm SHOCKED they didn't pull every vendor in town around the dog's guild to force you to go to the next step 9000 miles away next to winterhold. Pretty much the same thing with the mages guild. Finish one part and they loose magic anomolies all over the place. Throw you in an ambulance lock down the guild like a prison complex and force you into the next "cut scene" which is conveniently placed 9000 miles away as well.

 

It's like cattle stalls that don't provide you anything you need along the way. You are just pushed onto some sort of slaughter. And the "timed" missions. If you run up to the companions fighting the giant and help them you get good friend faction with some of them. But if you get anywhere close to whiterun you set the level of all the companions outside. You won't fix level on any followers inside till you go through gates and you won't fix level of the house carl at dragon reach until the games says you discovered dragon reach. But it's possible to fix a worthless follower a master training heavy armor trainer with 3 times more speech skill than heavy armor who uses a 2 handed weapon but has way more skill in one hand and has a skyforge 2 handed sword until he drops it when he becomes a dog and won't pick it back up and pulls a iron 2 hander out of his butt. You see what I'm talking about here don't you. This is somoene's on crack and designing games.

 

People say I'm not smart. Those people get my fist but you I like. Uh. I have 67 speechcraft skill and if you had waited 15 more levels i'd have a 100 but still only 27 heavy armor skill.

 

The other timed quest is the orc stronghold next to the dwarven ruin that makes smithing go from rediculously easy to level to an unnoticable 25 percent faster level of rediculousnes that means absolutely nothing in the number granularity until about 60 skill anyway and doesn't even help at all until you reach 70 smithing skill. Anyway that's for the level 9 quest for volundrungs weak hammer which if you unlock the above mentioned fire perk under illusion unlock fire enchanting and enchant a dagger of destroy your stamina which is classified as fire in the game you can turn every caster into a one cast wonder who doesn't have any stamina to cast and spells fail and any twohander get's one swing then you could sneak away from the swings and not get hit.

 

In that quest. If you get about 900 miles from the strong hold it starts a giant rampage. 3 guys run outside and an npc. The giant one hits every single one of the guys who run out at ANY LEVEL. The girl who will become a follower after you complete the quest gets one block and she's dead next swing. You can do it easily by going there before level 9 then fast traveling to it and kill the giant before the, no one bests an orcs, come sprinting out of the stronghold to get turned into fly swatter goo. But the only way to do it otherwise is to USE a weapon. Use a paralyze potion. Sprint as fast as you can to the fight and hopefully paralyze him before he kills the girl that breaks the quest. Which you have to redo 3 times because the first 2 times he kills one flyswatter orc then goes straight for your quest target. Now there's no reason behind any of this other than decisions by the programmers to be jackholes and make the quests stupid. Oh look I can program computers and be an annoying jackhole at the same time. Aren't I special.

 

This game just sucks. Until there's a mod that kills every single npc in the game. Strangles the radiant quest engine and rewirtes the perk and skill tree it's a turd. A turd on fire in a brown bag on your doorstep. Then it can be what it's meant to be. A nice chicken game. Where all the quests involve killing skooma dealers who are trying to ruin the family farm and kill the dog. You then adventure with the chicken to destroy the skooma den. Then you brawl with the dog till it leaves the chicken alone and then wonder the streets to the next town destroying 5 dragons with a learn how to fly you idjut FAA manual and the guts of a radar screen that shoots lightening bolts.

 

Even then. The graphics engine will suck 3 times worse than oblivion but at least it won't beat your cpu silly with a stupid quest scripting engine written in turdsoft unstructured derp language.

 

I have NEVER finished the thieves quild quest line and NEVER DONE the stupid civil war quest line. But what I have done is told the idiot in the house in marketh his little hammer sucks and I don't want it and radiant immediately put the priest in the same place as the dibella quest. And really enough with the lets use the z axis to turn 5 feet of x y coordianates with unscalable walls between every quest giver and quest target who you have to run 500 miles to the left and 500 miles to the right to get 10 feet with wolves spiders and bears every 10 feet. Or else you can just shove your lost hunting party up your butt because you need to move to another city for that to make ANY SENSE other than just being frikking annoying.

 

I'm telling you. Next game from them is going to be glued together from broken code chunks stored on the office server by people paid 3 dollars an hour plus a one hour crack lunch and free crack from 7pm to 9pm. The community is just pee'd off and are attacking each other because they are all inside the same black hole of stupidity. And no the interface is NOT a great interface that you just have to learn and get used to before you fall deeply in love with it. It's the WORST INTERFACE IN THE HISTORY OF PC CONSOLE PORTS.

 

They'll NEVER do a desert region centric game again. Because they can't herd you with moutains and water. Kajiit are forever gypsy support characters.

[Dukkah]

I agree, OP.

 

It seems that what a lot of people are asking for is reasonable acknowledgement by the Ai when something is unlikely. As opposed to those who would say your argument is anti-choice, I would say it's anti-the-pseudo-choice system Skyrim possesses. Masked behind the player's freedom to choose is the lack of depth of experience in that choice. Why would Mages name someone who doesn't use magic their Archmage? Why would the companions let a milk drinking mage be their Harbinger? I think, OP, you agree with others when they say there should be consequences for choices made in the game. Would not a consequence of being the master of one guild be that you're too busy to be the master of another? Or even that another guild would not want a master who has multiple allegiances? Yes, you would have entire sections of the game closed to you, but that is the consequence of free choice.

 

But I think that would require an Ai capable of really changing the world based on player actions, as opposed to one merely capable of spawning fetch-quests and bandit hunts. An Ai that would be able to compensate for closed possibilities by opening entirely new ones (e.g, creating an expanded mages guild line where other guilds might become closed off).

 

Not to say I don't like the Radiant Ai; I think it shows Beth is aware of the limitations on the ability to create not just an open world, but one that feels connected and whole, such that the player's actions really do get the NPCs moving in new and perhaps even unexpected ways. Being the star studio that they are, I think we can expect Beth will keep improving along this road toward the most immersive experience possible.

[thesapien]

I agree, OP.

 

It seems that what a lot of people are asking for is reasonable acknowledgement by the Ai when something is unlikely. As opposed to those who would say your argument is anti-choice, I would say it's anti-the-pseudo-choice system Skyrim possesses. Masked behind the player's freedom to choose is the lack of depth of experience in that choice. Why would Mages name someone who doesn't use magic their Archmage? Why would the companions let a milk drinking mage be their Harbinger? I think, OP, you agree with others when they say there should be consequences for choices made in the game. Would not a consequence of being the master of one guild be that you're too busy to be the master of another? Or even that another guild would not want a master who has multiple allegiances? Yes, you would have entire sections of the game closed to you, but that is the consequence of free choice.

 

But I think that would require an Ai capable of really changing the world based on player actions, as opposed to one merely capable of spawning fetch-quests and bandit hunts. An Ai that would be able to compensate for closed possibilities by opening entirely new ones (e.g, creating an expanded mages guild line where other guilds might become closed off).

 

Not to say I don't like the Radiant Ai; I think it shows Beth is aware of the limitations on the ability to create not just an open world, but one that feels connected and whole, such that the player's actions really do get the NPCs moving in new and perhaps even unexpected ways. Being the star studio that they are, I think we can expect Beth will keep improving along this road toward the most immersive experience possible.

 

Well said. I'm not sure if it quite covers what issues have been raised in this thread but definitely overlaps and is perhaps even more desired by all gamers. In this thread, many dislikes about the game have more to do with simple design choices and not necessarily having more generally intelligent AI for the NPC's. I suspect that's why the original poster likes the link to plans by a modder to change some of these things without asking for a better program platform for the game.

 

It makes we wonder what really holds back the developers when trying to make a better game. There are many not so difficult ways of programming more aware NPC's, like just having dialogue choices trigger new global responses from NPC's. I suspect the bigger hurdle involves the additional script writing, voice acting, editing, and whatever else is involved in a project that has now doubled, tripled, perhaps quadrupled because of the branching trees opened up to more intelligent AI. This is no small feat. Consider a motion picture is maybe an hour and a half long of scripting, acting, editing etc. For a game like Skyrim, we're talking how many hours, especially if our wishes were answered? Fortunately, Skyrim is getting a lot of Game of the Year awards; a good thing given that they'll need a much bigger budget.

 

But, again, I think many of our issues could had been simply avoided with more clever writing of what was written, instead of implementing novel programming of AI.

[StayFrosty05]

I agree OP.....I play a straight up, weapons toting Nord Warrior, the only magic he comes anywhere near are the Shouts (if that is even technically magic)...but to complete the main quest he HAS to join the Mages Guild...O.o...I would have much preferred just be able to speak with the librarian about the scrolls without him having to join up. If he wants Gaulders Amulet he gets dragged in even further...is very immersion breaking....I have decided to forgo to Amulet altogether, my PC is not a Mage.

[thesapien]

I agree OP.....I play a straight up, weapons toting Nord Warrior, the only magic he comes anywhere near are the Shouts (if that is even technically magic)...but to complete the main quest he HAS to join the Mages Guild...O.o...I would have much preferred just be able to speak with the librarian about the scrolls without him having to join up. If he wants Gaulders Amulet he gets dragged in even further...is very immersion breaking....I have decided to forgo to Amulet altogether, my PC is not a Mage.

 

I agree. That said, take comfort in knowing it's even worse for mages. Try playing the game without ever using a weapon. Sure, it can be done, but especially the early game isn't designed that way. Off the bat, you're given a choice between following one soldier or another. One gives you a sword, the other an axe, and tells you practice swinging. Next up is the bow and arrow. Then if you follow either character further, you'll disappoint them if you pick the mage stone. Throughout the game, you can always resort to unpowered attacks using weapons. Mages don't get a similar option until they find staffs but still must enchant them and keep them full of souls. So, even without stamina you can still attack with any of your preferred weapons; swords, bows, axes... But there are no reserves for low powered magic attacks; you're out, you're out. Reserved stamina attacks yet no reserved magicka attacks. The backup is always a weapon and unlimited stamina minus power attacks.

[galalic]

I disliked that in Oblivion you could easily become the leader of each guild/faction. I thought it was unrealistic. Then in Skyrim, they upped the ante (as has been pointed out, you can sidestep the Thieves' Guild, but you cannot avoid joining the College of Winterhold in the MQ).

 

That really breaks the game for me (also: Paarthurnax). I know, I'm one of those silly pesky "role-players" who actually wants a character to stay in character. My Nord barbarian doesn't use magic. Why does he need to summon a Flame Atronach just so he can eventually kill Alduin? Why is my character nearly always limited to one-track, insipid, childishly naive conversation options, regardless of his(/her) level of achievement?

 

I'm not a fan of the forced werewolf line, either; however, I didn't have a problem going and immediately curing it. My main problem is that the quests to cure the remaining Companions is so often broken and bugged.

 

So many of the questlines - like the Paarthurnax Blades line (if you go with the popular option), the rebellion/Moot, Imperial/Stormcloak camps littered about - seem absolutely unfinished. Perhaps they're waiting on an expansion; that's disappointing, but at least it would be something to which I could look forward.

 

Ultimately, there are many problems with Skyrim from a role-playing perspective (and that's not getting into the incredible bugginess of the game). I still love it. I'm still avoiding the Thieves' Guild and the DB until I make a new, evil-er character (who will probably also join the Imperials). Like most of you, I'll see "all" the content I care to at some point or another.

 

-Rog

 

Post-Script: there are a couple of long-time posters who have been devaluing and talking down newbie posters. Having a difference of opinion is what forums are all about; taking an elitist attitude because you've "been here longer" or some other such nonsense is childish and unnecessary. Let me highlight it before you can: this is my FIRST POST. Yet, I'm sure most of the long-established posters here agree with what I've posted above. # of posts does not reflect how long a person has been gaming; their intellect; their understanding of and involvement with TES world; their gaming styles (e.g. role-player vs. munchkin). Don't be afraid; it's easy enough to argue against a power-gamer without resorting to childish elitism (I was here first, so you don't get to talk, NYAH!). :D

[galalic]

Also (not to ramble on): Daedra quests. I resent the fact that once you've started the Molag Bal questline, you have no option to warn the priest, or help him, or anything. You either do something evil, or you leave the quest in your log forever, unfinished. Staring at you. Judging you.

 

It would be nice to actually have alternative methods to complete quests, rather than alternative methods to kill things to complete quests in the same way.

 

-Rog

[thesapien]

glalic (Rog), I reserve the right to be inconsistent because I keep going back on forth on this.

 

Wielding in one hand, I hear you that in some ways the game seems to allow one to break character by becoming one type, then another, etc. It's like having a hippie dungeon master. Then it also sometimes switches to a control freak DM who wants to mold your character for you.

 

Casting a ward spell in my other hand, might you be breaking your own character? You don't have to do it all just because you can, asking someone else to stop you. Why do you feel like you were forced to become a werewolf with your character? None of my characters felt that way to me. It actually took a lot of asking and doing. Sure, you join the mage's college, but just talk to others there and see that anyone with magic off the road is allowed in to study, even if just for one class, then leave. There's no pressure to stay or become the archmage. It's nothing like joining a faction because they aren't that tight. If you never use your magic while you're off questing for the college and still pursue archmage status, who's breaking the game? Sure, it would be nice to have less gullible scholars, but didn't you say you were role-playing?

 

I'm new to Elder Scrolls. Skyrim is my first. Coming from Dragon Age, I had the false impression of creating a character that was exclusively a warrior, rogue, or mage while playing this game. My bad. The PC in Skyrim is by default a bit of all three. As you progress, you can focus and mix and match, but completely ignoring any one is something the player tacks on. Do you play the game just pretending that magicka bar isn't there? You do know that an enemy on fire takes more damage from your weapons, right, which brings me to my next point. Followers aren't controllable like in Dragon Age, so combo attacks here are mostly a solo affair, meaning that limiting your character to just one class is, well, very self limiting.

 

Imagine trying to play Skyrim as a pure mage. What's your default, low powered attack for when you're out of magicka (or stamina)? Nonexistent because you must resort to a dagger, sword, bow, etc. If you've obtained a staff at some point, better keep it charged and powered up, as well, because they don't work like the other weapons for warriors and rogues inflicting damage even without soul gems. See my point? I don't think this is a game meant to be played as just a warrior or rogue or mage. Wouldn't you like to slow a giant down with a little frost before going toe to toe with your warrior who probably doesn't use arrows dipped in potions or cast spells?

 

So, my question, what game are you trying to role play in? I'm not sure it's quite this one. But that's me, without a rearing in previous Elder Scroll games.

[myrmaad]

As soon as I realized how much I liked armoring ingame I pretty much gravitated to crafting a spellsword. I know nothing about Dragon Age, never played that.

 

Classes have been thrown out for Skyrim but this might be edifying for you.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes#Spellsword

[thesapien]

Also (not to ramble on): Daedra quests. I resent the fact that once you've started the Molag Bal questline, you have no option to warn the priest, or help him, or anything. You either do something evil, or you leave the quest in your log forever, unfinished. Staring at you. Judging you.

 

It would be nice to actually have alternative methods to complete quests, rather than alternative methods to kill things to complete quests in the same way.

 

-Rog

 

I haven't tried that one yet but did have a similar experience last night with the whole red guard woman quest. Once I heard a bit of what the guy had to say, even after killing many of his crew, I just turned and left. My quest log still says to talk to him, but my character doesn't like killing over he said she said things. Funny how we want to clean out our quest logs. But, really, maybe just see it as with all the others in there that aren't really telling you do this or that, just showing some options. Like, it doesn't really mean for you to join both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks in the beginning, given that you can't anyways.