[WIP] Belua Sanguinare Revisited

[MofoMojo]

Well, if adding a new skill is possible in the CK then I will definitely be taking the path of adding in leveling vampirism through your actions, adding special perks and perk paths based on various lore that will likely NOT overlap. This way, depending upon the path you choose to take, you'll have a slightly different experience. I'll certainly need help with the ideas, especially as I want to be sure that they fit not just within current vampire lores/legends, but also within the lore available from Bethesda.

 

I need to re-install Morrowind and Oblivion and then read and cultivate the book and information about Vampires from those two games as well as Skyrim (which I've done).

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I might should start my own thread about this as I certainly don't want to interfere with Vannixii and Jakisthe's threads, unless they don't mind me being here...

 

-MM

[elricshan]

i will help you with the ideas as i cant mod a game even if it was to save my life

[MofoMojo]

i will help you with the ideas as i cant mod a game even if it was to save my life

 

The help would be much appreciated!

 

I just have to say, the Vampiric Evasion perk is just simply awesome!!! I've been playing it .... well up to today as I've had eye surgery and can't see very well... and it's VERY fun.

 

I like the idea of keeping the KillOnSight for higher level vampires, UNLESS they cast a spell which either a) lowers their available magicka until they cancel it or b) slowly drains their available magicka until they cancel it. This will add a little "tension" to being a vampire in Skyrim while still allowing the player to interact with the regular citizens... I think that will add a lot to the experience.

 

-MM

 

Off to go to comatose land...my eye surgery and the resulting drugs to withstand the pain are starting to kick in.... I wish I could spend some time on this today.... I really witsh the CK was out. Please keep the ideas flowing.

 

-MM

[Jakisthe]

Replies forthcoming, I've been incredibly busy with job stuffs.

 

MM, I don't mind you posting in here. I think it's better than starting a whole slew of disparate threads, and this one (despite my obnoxiously self centered image :pinch: ) is about ideas; what people think of mine, what they're suggestions are, and how they'd do it instead.

[MofoMojo]

Replies forthcoming, I've been incredibly busy with job stuffs.

 

MM, I don't mind you posting in here. I think it's better than starting a whole slew of disparate threads, and this one (despite my obnoxiously self centered image :pinch: ) is about ideas; what people think of mine, what they're suggestions are, and how they'd do it instead.

 

Absolutely wonderful!!! And as far as "self centered image", HAH. You an me both!. Soo itching for the release of this CK....

 

-MM

[Jakisthe]

Ok, responses!

 

MM, I like the concept of Vampiric Evasion a lot, but I don't know how it would feel from an unbiased view. I haven't modded it into my game yet, but how often do enemies do power attacks anyway? I have too much armor to tell :P

If it's too frequently, I could imagine it would get....annoying.. Now, from the sounds of it, you're having a grand ol' time, and I'm very much jelly, but it's important to realize we can't always be the best judge of our creations :wallbash:

 

If it does indeed work as well as it sounds like it does, well...that'd basically be a necessity ^_^

 

 

The race thing seems iffy. Yes, I suppose it makes sense in lore (both TES and IRL lore), but that seems limiting to the player. In light of the current inability to get perk points back, I'd hesitate to create a path wherein some parts of it were cutoff permanently...Some players could get easily annoyed from seeing tantalizing powers, but having their role restricted because of their race. Actually, that seems kinda racist :tongue:

But really, it seems...pigeonhole-y. I don't even know if the "clan choice=mutually exclusive ability" is a good idea, and those are a single passive one.

 

The skill tree remains interesting. I still wanna see if it's possible to gain perk points for it only using the exp gained from conducting vampiric abilities, but I also feel like vampiricness/blooddrinking/thirst should play into it as well. What's more, I think a lot of our proposed changes are passive, so leveling them up (by, say, utilizing your natural good looks at lvl 1) would be difficult to factor in. Plus, the need for balance for humanity/monster is a big theme in a lot of vampire lore, and combined with the aforementioned inability to restructure/lose perk points..I guess it could be done by placing limiters (ie, weaken vampirism x points to match level y), but that seems like an overtly artificial way of controlling it (not to mention you'd still get exp+it'd show up as normal in the detailed tree inspection like in the game).

 

I LOVE the idea of having to expend mental resources to maintain a facade. To what extent of a facade would require some extent of resources, well, that is up to be tweaked, but still. Awesome. Although I am still fond of my "wear mask works too" idea. Maybe the mask could only work up to within a few feet (larger the older the vampire is) of the target, wherein they'd get suspicious and trigger their normal vampire reactions? So, say, at max...vampirism, the radius would be, like, 20 ft and anyone within twenty ft would get suspicious...unless you cast that hide spell! Now that's some really old school lore.

 

 

I think the crouch=detectlife toggle is probably the best solution, with range increasing with level. I mean, doesn't it already do the heartbeat pulse? I think it does, but who knows...I don't think they should be able to detect undead though. It's the blood/heart they're smelling/sensing/hearing, not just movement.

As far as blood powers go...I feel like "blood mage" and "vampire" are two very seperate entities. Most, if not all (can't remember :pinch:) of the lore I've seen has them simply needing blood, not controlling it. It could be argued that blood powers their abilities like fighting, but for the most part, I'm pretty sure that a vampires fear comes from their nigh mystical physical prowess and heightened magical sensitivity.

[MofoMojo]

Ok, responses!

 

MM, I like the concept of Vampiric Evasion a lot, but I don't know how it would feel from an unbiased view. I haven't modded it into my game yet, but how often do enemies do power attacks anyway? I have too much armor to tell :P

If it's too frequently, I could imagine it would get....annoying.. Now, from the sounds of it, you're having a grand ol' time, and I'm very much jelly, but it's important to realize we can't always be the best judge of our creations :wallbash:

 

If it does indeed work as well as it sounds like it does, well...that'd basically be a necessity ^_^

 

Let me know if you'd like to see it in action. I'll send you a file with it, and you can add the "Perk". It is indeed configured as a perk.

 

The race thing seems iffy. Yes, I suppose it makes sense in lore (both TES and IRL lore), but that seems limiting to the player. In light of the current inability to get perk points back, I'd hesitate to create a path wherein some parts of it were cutoff permanently...Some players could get easily annoyed from seeing tantalizing powers, but having their role restricted because of their race. Actually, that seems kinda racist :tongue:

But really, it seems...pigeonhole-y. I don't even know if the "clan choice=mutually exclusive ability" is a good idea, and those are a single passive one.

 

Ok, you have me on this one. The longer they play at being a vampire, the more choices they should have. I should not restrict their choices based on selection of a path, but I think some of the lore definied within the Elder Scrolls mythos should certainly appear as perks rather than just given to the character. I think they should CHOSE to spend their perks either on Vampiric Skills or other skills.... or perhaps not. Really, it will depend on how easy it is to implement a new skill. I was able to replace Illusion as a skill and started spec'ing out new perks but I couldn't ADD a new skill without crashing the game. This will have to wait for the CK.

 

The skill tree remains interesting. I still wanna see if it's possible to gain perk points for it only using the exp gained from conducting vampiric abilities, but I also feel like vampiricness/blooddrinking/thirst should play into it as well. What's more, I think a lot of our proposed changes are passive, so leveling them up (by, say, utilizing your natural good looks at lvl 1) would be difficult to factor in. Plus, the need for balance for humanity/monster is a big theme in a lot of vampire lore, and combined with the aforementioned inability to restructure/lose perk points..I guess it could be done by placing limiters (ie, weaken vampirism x points to match level y), but that seems like an overtly artificial way of controlling it (not to mention you'd still get exp+it'd show up as normal in the detailed tree inspection like in the game).

 

I definitely think some of the skills are passive. Looking at the way Perks are implemented (they are somewhat Passive Skills) we might be able to script incrementing some "Skill level" or whatever we do to track their progression as a vampire, even based on some of these passive skills getting kicked off. From the point of Blooddrinking, I agree. Drinking blood should also be a requirement to advanced your skill, and we can easily implement blocks to keep this from being abused (I did in my personal Oblivion mod) to gain levels quickly.

 

I LOVE the idea of having to expend mental resources to maintain a facade. To what extent of a facade would require some extent of resources, well, that is up to be tweaked, but still. Awesome. Although I am still fond of my "wear mask works too" idea. Maybe the mask could only work up to within a few feet (larger the older the vampire is) of the target, wherein they'd get suspicious and trigger their normal vampire reactions? So, say, at max...vampirism, the radius would be, like, 20 ft and anyone within twenty ft would get suspicious...unless you cast that hide spell! Now that's some really old school lore.

 

Absolutely. You either have to completely conceal your identity or you may be revealed. Again, I think this can be handled through the mechanism by which perks work. We can detect whether the player is wearing certain headgear that we know to be masks, and remove the player from the VampirePCFaction. I did some tests with that faction because in the game there are two settings in the script when you go to the final 4th stage.

 

1) It adds you to the VampirePCFaction

2) It sets an AttackOnSight flag to true

 

Not sure why it does the second, because standing in Whiterun if I add myself to the VampirePCFaction the guards instantly attack me. The second option seems moot.

 

I think the crouch=detectlife toggle is probably the best solution, with range increasing with level. I mean, doesn't it already do the heartbeat pulse? I think it does, but who knows...I don't think they should be able to detect undead though. It's the blood/heart they're smelling/sensing/hearing, not just movement.

 

I think a toggle version of this is the best solution, and since I use crouch a lot I think it should be an ability and not tied to just crouching. On the other hand, if not ostentasiously done to where the "Detect Life" shader is BARELY intrusive meaning you just BARELY make out the red shader effect, that might not be too bad, but I still lean toward toggling the effect. I think you convinced me that sound is certainly going to be annoying.

 

As far as blood powers go...I feel like "blood mage" and "vampire" are two very seperate entities. Most, if not all (can't remember :pinch:) of the lore I've seen has them simply needing blood, not controlling it. It could be argued that blood powers their abilities like fighting, but for the most part, I'm pretty sure that a vampires fear comes from their nigh mystical physical prowess and heightened magical sensitivity.

 

Agreed on this. I think as a Vampire simply being themselves, they should have no control over the blood. As an entity, if it chose to learn some form of magic over the enternities that it had to live, that would be up to it, but not something inherent in the base vampire. Basically like a fighter vampire deciding to give up his later years and focus on... conjuration magic.

 

I'm not sure I even like the idea of Vampires having the ability to "Raise Undead". I like the idea of "Charming" others to do your bidding (Attack, stop attacking me, give you a good deal on some merchandise, open a locked door, etc,.

 

These are all GREAT ideas to keep bringing up though. Just because I or someone else doesn't agree, doesn't mean there's no merit to it. I've changed my mind through continued discussion on several things.

 

Thank you all,

 

-MM

Edited January 24, 2012 by MofoMojo

[Jakisthe]

Send me the files! Not sure how, but I'd very much want to see :dance:. Edited January 26, 2012 by Jakisthe

[MofoMojo]

Send me the files! Not sure how, but I'd very much want to see :dance:.

 

[responses forthcoming, as usual >_>]

 

Should be attached to this post. From the console command do

 

HELP VAMPIRIC 4

 

And you should get a SMALL list of items. Hit PG UP (if you have to) and scroll up through the list and look for PERK 0x##01014 "Vampiric Evasion". Then do:

 

PLAYER.ADDPERK 0x##01014

 

That should be all there is to it. Ignore any SPEL items that show up, as they are helper's to the perk.

 

Once that's done, attack a guard in Whiterun or something and give it a go.

 

It kicks in with every power attack and depending on the guard...I'd sometimes have 3-4 power attacks from them within a single fight.

 

There's a random number generator function so I was thinking of maybe using it as a condition to create "Levels" of the perk, such as 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100%.

 

My description will ultimately read something like "You're skill and speed as a vampire allows you to detect and evade power attacks during combat".

 

While I know it would be overkill, I've been trying to figure out how to implement a similar skill when getting bashed with a shield or shot at with an arrow but so far no luck.

 

The Perk System allows for some VERY cool things we can implement on a conditional basis but there are some limitations, at least until I can get a better understanding of it with the CK, or changes to SkyEdit. I wish we could have a simple SPELL cast perk with conditions on it. It would entirely fix my sunlight damage issue without being able to fast travel/wait/sleep etc,. but it's either a GUI limitation in SkyEdit or a limitation in Skyrim's PERK implementation.

 

I have also implemented a "Soft Fall" sort of perk which reduces damage taken from a fall by 25%, 50%, 75%, and 99%. Somewhat providing the vampire the ability to jump down from higher and higher heights, but never just freefalling without taking ANY damage. That last percentage might need to be tweaked down a bit.

 

Next up is altering the jump height a little bit.

 

-MM

[MofoMojo]

 

Next up is altering the jump height a little bit.

 

-MM

 

Forget that.... the sun damage problem has been nagging at me and I have worked out the problem tonight. To restart:

 

We can create a SunDamage ability (it really should be an ability) that has a conditional check to see if the player really isn't in an interior and that they aren't in Sovengarde, the hours are between 5am and 7pm and I've gone so far as to ensure the light level is > 120 (150 is the max) so they can protect themselves in the shade and overcast weather won't hurt them.

 

The problem is the game won't let you FAST TRAVEL/WAITING/SLEEPING and a few other unknowns if it thinks you're taking damage. Even when the conditions evaluate to FALSE so that the EFFECT is not applied, it assumes you are taking damage because of the magnitude value.

 

Solution:

Create a spell/ability whose only purpose is to damage the user when in the sunlight (given the conditions above)

Create a perk whose only purpose is to cast that spell

Create a magical effect whose only purpose is to apply the perk

Create a spell/ability whose only purpose is to apply that effect when the user is in the sunlight (given the conditions above).

 

So 2 spells, 1 perk, and 2 effects are required to achieve it, but I have it working. When the user is in direct sunlight, they take damage. When in the shade they do not. They can ONLY fast travel when they have protected themselves from the shade or at night or when it's overcast outside.

 

-MM

Edited January 26, 2012 by MofoMojo