Ulfric Stormcloaks Victory Speech (Solitude)

[terzho]

Yeah but the Stormcloaks are racist and Ulfric is a douche........... JOKING JOKING.

 

That was a brilliant essay lengthed argument and I would like permission to quote you in any future discussions.

[terzho]

I'm going to go ahead and list out a couple things, that may or may not have already been covered. But I figure its better to have a nice round-up and some general clarification on events:

 

 

Talos has to be worshiped. Otherwise, he'll go poof. The gods divinity, and especially the divinity of Talos rely on mythopoesis. IE, they need people to believe in them to really give them power. The Thalmor push for the worship of Talos being banned because they don't see him as a god, and whats worse, they see him as an insult because it shows that a mere human could reach divinity while all Altmer are still stuck as mortals. Further, they want to return to the point where they weren't mortals. Removing Talos (by way of eliminating all those who believe in him, and castrating him in those who could come to believe in him) is the first step towards that. The Thalmor ultimately want to end the world for humans (and thus reverse the creation of Mundus) because then that would (according to what they think will happen) return them to a point before Mundus was created.

 

Ulfric started his rebellion because he was denied the ability to openly worship Talos by the Empire, and not only that, but he was thrown into the hands of the Thalmor shortly afterwords. For merely doing what he was asked by his Empire and asking for what he was promised. While the Thalmor call him an "asset", its quite foolish to assume that after being tortured by the Thalmor that he's going to just get all buddy buddy with them. No most likely the Thalmor heard him cursing the Empire and vowing some sort of revenge while being tortured (or while in his cell) and as such saw fit to let him escape to start his Rebellion. They say that they go on to establish contact, but again, its foolish to assume that he'd just buddy up to them after what happened. No, most likely the Thalmor have a plant in his army that is working towards sustaining the war while also undermining it. I personally suspect his steward, but it could be anyone.

 

This however doesn't make his rebellion a bad thing.

 

======================

 

The current Empire needs to die. Its higher leadership is plagued by incompetence and corruption, its Emperor (who was a bloody short-sighted idiot, more on that in a second) is about to be assassinated, its military can't hold onto its one major holding outside of Cyrodiil (High Rock is currently too busy fussing about themselves to be much a bother to anyone), and whats worse its not even a legitimate Empire. The Throne was taken by force by the first Titus Mede, so the Empire you all think you're supporting actually died off a little under 200 years ago.

 

Its ineptitude is proven in its actions. When it first began, it failed to respond to what was occurring in the Empire. The entire south of Tamriel was lost in the time leading up to the Great War, Morrowind was torn apart, and western Tamriel went to war against Orsinium, which eventually lead to that city being destroyed yet again, breaking the treaties that existed there and ultimately going against the Empire's rule. But sure, may be you can give the Mede Empire a break here because it was "weak". That's fine.

 

Then the Great War comes along. The Dominion gives the Empire an ultimatum, and demands the south of Hammerfel and several other things that would basically cripple what was left of the Empire. Mede II has the sense to deny them this. The Dominion then proceeds to invade within a day of that ultimatum being denied, ultimately circumventing Cyrodiil's defenses, and passing straight into Hammerfel, with the intent on taking it. (Cyrodiil being invaded was just a ploy to keep the Legion divided) Cyrodiil proves to be easier to take, with success being had by Narafiin's army at an impressive rate. This leads to the point when the south of Hammerfel is taken, and the Dominion's separate army (separate, remember that) moving across the Alik'r desert to be stopped in Skaven. At this point, the Dominion calls on all available forces (which basically means any forces not currently sitting in Hammerfel or otherwise being used for law and order) to march on Cyrodiil to capture the Imperial City and in turn overthrow the Empire altogether. They capture the Imperial City and begin slaughtering the inhabitants of Cyrodiil save those who live in the northern areas, namely Bruma.

 

Eventually, the Legion manages to rally itself into coherence, and the Emperor orders the Legion in Hammerfel (along with Legions coming out of Skyrim and High Rock) to march on Cyrodiil, which ultimately would have left Hammerfel at the hands of the Dominion's invasion force there. But General Decianus has a brain and leaves troops there who go on to form the core of the army that would continue fighting there. So, the Legion marches on Cyrodiil, attacks the Dominion held Imperial City and retakes it, destroying the vast majority of the Dominion's entire army along with it.

 

Then, inexplicably, Mede II signs the White-Gold Concordat, which completely negates the fact that the Legion destroyed the Dominion's army by giving the Dominion virtually all of the main awards they wished to gain in the first place with their ultimatum. This is ultimately proven to be one of the stupidest decisions an Emperor could make, as Hammerfel (which is left to the wolves because Mede is a short-sighted dillweed) goes on to fight the Dominion's invasion force (which was built specifically to take Hammerfel, and the Thalmor would not have been so stupid to put a force together that couldn't have taken Hammerfel) to a total standstill on its own (using a diminished single Legion and whatever militia they could have raised) and kept the Dominion in this standstill for 5 years afterwords, at which point the Dominion gives up and lets Hammerfel have all of its lands back.

 

This shows us that the war could have been sustained with little problem to the Empire. For one, Hammerfel was already going to be involved in war, so there's no point stopping war for their sake. High Rock and Skyrim never saw the war and at that point would never have seen the war unless the Dominion somehow found themselves a magical mcguffin. As such, stopping war or continuing it wasn't going to put any more strain on them. Cyrodiil was the only place that would have truly had a reason to see the war stopped (and note that this is important to note for later) and even then, the remaining Legion forces that could continue to fight would have been able to defend Cyrodiil's southern borders, especially when complemented with fresh troops from the two provinces up in the north that never saw the war and were never drawn on for fresh troops. (The legions that were taken from the two were already established there, well before the war. They weren't new troops going off to their first fight) It would have been the same for resources. High Rock and Skyrim could have easily supported Cyrodiil and the resistance in Hammerfel with proper rationing.

 

The mere fact that the Dominion gave up fighting against one single province shows that they would not have been able to sustain a war against the rest of northern, western, and central Tamriel. Elsweyrs status as a pair of client states to the Dominion wouldn't have helped them, because the Khajiit proved that they weren't going to go to war for the Dominion, both in their actions during the Great War (where their only presence was in allowing Dominion troops asylum) and afterwords, where they never sent help to Hammerfel's invasion force.

 

But no, Titus Mede II signed the WGC and completely undermined the victory he just had against his enemy, and all for the seeming point of serving CYRODIIL's interests. The Empire clings to Skyrim because it knows that Cyrodiil will be left to the mercy of the Dominion (though even then, the Dominion can't successfully invade anyone at this point, and wont' be able to for at least a hundred years. Best case scenario they knock over the Empire, but thats not saying much when it would just leave them with a weak grip on Cyrodiil), not because Tamriel will fall. Not because the Dominion is some mystical force thats just ready to destroy the Empire but is only holding back because of some stupid treaty. Not because Cyrodiil actually cares about Skyrim.

 

The Mede Empire is weak, has always been weak, and has shown that its even willing to sell out the most important god to Mankind all for the sake of sparing poor old Cyrodiil the threat of war. It needs to die, so that something new can take its place. Something that can, and will stand up the Dominion and won't just fall apart soon afterwords anyway. The Mede Empire will never be able to regain the allegiance of Hammerfel, as Hammerfel would not ally themselves with the very force that sold them out to the Dominion, unless by force, which would result in war even more detrimental than the current Civil War in Skyrim. And the allegiance of Hammerfel is going to be crucial for whomever decides to go up against the Dominion. Its sea access and key experience with the Dominion is invaluable, and the Empire will never be able to touch it.

 

It needs to die, and a unified Skyrim coming to call upon the rest of mankind (and much of Mer-kind for that matter)on Tamriel is going to be the best hope against the Dominion when the time comes.

================================

 

Those saying that the enforcement of the Talos ban only being started after the Civil War are, well stupid, because they're missing the point entirely of whats occurring. Sitting there and worshiping in the darkness (in some petty attempt to stay alive long enough to see an end you can't escape) is just as bad as outright accepting someone telling you can't worship X god anymore. The Thalmor want to obliterate Talos and by extension the rest of mankind and the entirety of Mundus along with it. Worshiping in secret will do NOTHING. It will only postpone the inevitable. The Thalmor might not have been so active in Skyrim before the Civil War, but you damn well know they were going to be at some point regardless. They want to obliterate Talos. Left unchecked, they WILL start purging Talos worshipers in Skyrim, Civil War or not.

 

I can tell you as a real-life follower of a polytheistic religion that an invasion force coming in and telling me I can't worship one of my gods would easily make me want to rise in rebellion. The fact that there are many gods does not make it any less terrible when you're told you can't worship one of them. And if that god is the most popular one in the bunch? Oh, its bad.

 

==============================

 

As touched on above, while the rebellion is indeed beneficial to the Dominion, that does not automatically make the rebellion a bad thing. As stated above, the Empire needs to die. And as the dossier on Ulfric shows, their rebellion succeeding would be just as detrimental to them as it would be if the rebellion was put down in a timely fashion by the Legion. The Thalmor need to be dealt with yes, but they aren't some magical power that's just waiting to waltz over and destroy all of Tamriel. They actually can't.

 

Their army is diminished still from the Great War. Valenwood can't be called on for support because not only does only a small portion of the population there actually support the Thalmor government, but those that don't support it are being purged still, 200 years after Valenwood was seized by the Dominion (They never joined willingly). Valenwood is on the verge of civil war itself, and even that civil war never erupts, the few among the Bosmer that will go to war for the Dominion are not going to give the Dominion the forces it needs to take on the rest of Tamriel. Elsweyr can't be called on, they won't go to war for the Dominion as they've shown on two occasions already. (and they can't be forced to either. Learn what a client state is)

 

The Dominion would need at least 100 years more to prepare before it could hope to take on the rest of Tamriel, but even then, they'd have a hard time because by then, no matter who wins the Civil War, the Dominion is going to have an army on its doorstep. And as I showed above, a Skyrim-lead army is going to be the best option, as it will then lead to a better future for Tamriel, and not one lead by the same inept government that allowed us to come to be in this mess in the first place.

 

realised I just started a new page and some people might not see it so sorry bout that.........

[imperistan]

Yeah but the Stormcloaks are racist and Ulfric is a douche........... JOKING JOKING.

 

That was a brilliant essay lengthed argument and I would like permission to quote you in any future discussions.

 

Feel free. :D

 

Shame really that this argument all across the internet is being plagued by misinformation not only from people who haven't looked into it deep enough but also by people who aren't even taking it seriously (and thus corrupting actual opinions).

[Lachdonin]

I'm sorry Imperistan, but you seem to have... well... a skewed image of whats going on in the world.

 

First, Talos's divinity. The Gods exist as a simple fact, without the need for worship. There are thousands of Et'ada still out there, most completely unknown by mortals, who don't give a rats ass about worship. Magnus, for instance, is an Aedra who openly HATES mortals. He's no less a 'god' than Talos is, he is not worshiped, and that doesn't do anything to his power or continued existance. The Daedra, similarly, don't need worshipers. They like them, because it gives them something to play with (some are like kids who strap fire crackers to army men, some are like girls who cherish their dolls and brush their hair for hours on end, but they all play) but they have absolutely no NEED for them. Because of this, it doesn't matter at all if the Humans continue to worship Talos, because he's going to keep doing his thing anyway.

 

You are correct, however, in the fact that the Dominion, particularly the Thalmor, oppose the idea that a Human can acheive godhood when they cannot regain their own, but that is the total extent of their theologic enimity towards him. They are not trying to destroy Talos buy stopping his worship, they are trying to reafim their own theologies.

 

Second, Ulfric, it has been stated in several places, wants the Throne. The Talos ban is a means by which he can gain supporters. And don't go on about his 'I won't take the throne untill the Moot says so' line, he's already replaced every Jarl who gets to vote with supporters, that's just a polite formailty like handing Solsthiem over to the Dunmer. There is also no evidence that the Empire is what asked him to put down the Foresworn. The Jarl of Markarth says they (As in him and his advisors) asked for help, while all other sources on the matter state the Empire was about to grant Markarth formally to the Reachmen. Ulfric served the NORDS, not the Empire, when he slaughtered women and children and put down what was essentially a slave revolt.

 

Third, the Mede Empire is not weak, at least not as much as you make it seem. The loss of southren Tamriel (Valenwood, Summerset and Balckmarsh) happened during an inter-dynastic period. The last sacking of Orsinium also took place during this time. There was almost 20 years where there was no Emperor, and things literally went to pot. The Thalmor had already assassinated key leaders throughout the Empire, including Chancelor Ocato (Who had almost single handedly kept the Empire together) and while Titus Mede was still trying to consolidate his possition in Cyrodiil they had already reformed the Domminion through a bloody coup in Valenwood. And you also seem to imply that Morrowind was the Empire's fault... Which is absolute absurdity.

 

In this regard i feel i should also point out that under Talos, things weren't any better. Within his reign, he had to put down a rebellion in Hammerfell, one in Blackmarsh, one in Morrowind, along with numerous assassination attempts by the Thalmor and other political rivals. He couldn't even defeat the Thalmor and the first Dominion without the Numidium, a massive brass golem created by the Dwemer, given to him by Vivec. If you're going to judge Mede as weak, then Talos must be doubly so, because Mede has to pretty much reconquer the Empire, without the help of a walking god.

 

Fourth, the Great War. You really skew this one in Ulfric's political favor. First off, history clearly states that the invasion of Hammerfell, not Cyrodiil, was the diversion. Second, histroy states that the Domminion commited the overwhelming majority of its forces to Cyrodiil in an attempt to bring down the Empire completely. It did not take non-commited armies, but rather stripped other offencives and occupations to a skeletal forces (Enough to maintain the distraction) and sent everything else into Cyrodiil. Third, the Battle of the Red Ring saw the complete commitance of the Imperial Legion, and while the Domminion army was completely slaughtered, not a single legion remained above half strength. Furthermore, Cyrodiil's industry has been decimated. Cyrodiil being the most productive province of the Empire, without rebuilding its resources first, there would be no way to maintain an army in the field. They would starve. While the Empire had won the battle, it could not win the war, and coupled with brutal moral problems, sueing for peace was the only reasonable option.

 

Hammerfell is, in fact, a perfect example of why the Empire could not win the war in its post Red Ring state. Following the signing of the White Gold Concordant and the sucession of Hammerfell, the brutalised Domminion continued its war in Hammerfell. The core of the Hammerfell army consisted of Legionaries left behind by Decanius. We can assume that the remaindure of their armies included militia, mercenaries and Al'akir nomads, a generally motly assortment of soldiers who were in a 'make do' situation. Against a strong formal military, their defeat would have been enevitable and should have been a sure thing. But it wasn't. The Domminion had been ehavily weakened by the Great war, and even with their own industry and supply capabilities untouched, they could not sustain a war effort against what amounted to a bunch of angry nomads. If the Domminion, with a completely untouched economic base, couldn't defeat rabble in the desert, how can anyone expect the Empire to have been able to assault fortified, well supplied possitions in its post-war state?

 

And the arguement about the clandestine worship fo Talos, again, is based on the absolutely false assertion that worship=existance for the Gods. There are dozens of examples in real world histroy of religious repression being done sucessfully in clandestine environments in order to maintain survival and civil order, from Jews in Babylon to Polytheists in Egypt. Kicking up a stink about it gets people killed, and the Empire has shown time and again it's trying to save lives. In order to do that, they have to find a way to do something Talos never was able to. They have to defeat the Dominion, and the Thalmor, WITHOUT the Numidium. Everything happening in Skyrim is undermining that.

 

Furthermore, i keep hearing claims about 'Hammerfell will never side witht he Empire again'. Where does it say this? The closest thing in the game is that the Succession of Hammerfell caused 'lasting scars' between Hammerfell and the Empire. I highly doubt that those scars are any worse than when Talos marched through and slaughtered the Redguard into submission. Those scars led to open rebellion that cost the Empire, and the Reguard, thousands of lives. All these scars are about is an unwillingness to continue the fight with the Dominion, something which every in-game sources indicates the Empire still very much intends to do.

 

The whole 'united under Skyrim' arguement also hinges on the assumption that, given the chance, all men will unite against the Thalmor. That has NEVER happened in Tamriel's history, they have only ever been able to be brought together through violence and conquest. Where do people seem to be getting the idea that this is any different? Humanities unwillingness to work together is part of the reason they were inslaved by the Elves in the first place. Their easy targets. The Nords can't even work with the people who live on the same land as them.

 

 

 

None of this is to say that the Stormcloaks do not have some validity to their rebellion. Sacrificing religious freedoms has never been an easy pill to swallow. To some, it's even worth dieing for, and there is nothing wrong with that conviction. However, it's blatantly obvious that Ulfric is using this fact to further his own politicla agenda, turning (some of) the people of Skyrim against his personal enemies rather than the ones responsible for the religious oppression. He's fighting a symptom rather than the infection, and that's just going to get everyone killed.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Lachdonin

[imperistan]

First, Talos's divinity. The Gods exist as a simple fact, without the need for worship. There are thousands of Et'ada still out there, most completely unknown by mortals, who don't give a rats ass about worship. Magnus, for instance, is an Aedra who openly HATES mortals. He's no less a 'god' than Talos is, he is not worshiped, and that doesn't do anything to his power or continued existance. The Daedra, similarly, don't need worshipers. They like them, because it gives them something to play with (some are like kids who strap fire crackers to army men, some are like girls who cherish their dolls and brush their hair for hours on end, but they all play) but they have absolutely no NEED for them. Because of this, it doesn't matter at all if the Humans continue to worship Talos, because he's going to keep doing his thing anyway.

 

Except you're wrong. The Thalmor don't believe that Talos is a god. As such, wiping out all belief in him in effect makes him no longer a god. You can argue that he still retains his divinity, but if you wipe out all those who believe in him then he will fade into non-relevance, effectively removing his divinity anyway.

 

And this isn't even mentioning their greater intentions.

 

Second, Ulfric, it has been stated in several places, wants the Throne. The Talos ban is a means by which he can gain supporters. And don't go on about his 'I won't take the throne untill the Moot says so' line, he's already replaced every Jarl who gets to vote with supporters,

 

Of course he does. Would he start a rebellion and then hand the throne over to some random peasant? Hell no. And he wouldn't need the Talos ban to gain supporters either. Or have you not noticed that the ban on Talos worship is only barely mentioned during the entire course of the Civil War when you side with the Stormcloaks?

 

And he's put Jarls in place who support his war, not his bid for High-King. Big difference. The Jarls are not stupid. If someone better than Ulfric presents himself, he will likely be chosen over Ulfric. And Ulfric wont' be able to do anything about it. The Nords will not start another civil war for the sake of one man who at that point would have gone against his word.

 

There is also no evidence that the Empire is what asked him to put down the Foresworn. The Jarl of Markarth says they (As in him and his advisors) asked for help, while all other sources on the matter state the Empire was about to grant Markarth formally to the Reachmen. Ulfric served the NORDS, not the Empire, when he slaughtered women and children and put down what was essentially a slave revolt.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that it was Imperial sanctioned. Nor does it change what happened afterwords. Oh and spare me your silly propaganda, thank you. (and don't come back to me with your obvious comeback on this point either. I've heard it many times already, and I don't feel like like sitting here and proving it wrong again)

 

Third, the Mede Empire is not weak, at least not as much as you make it seem. The loss of southren Tamriel (Valenwood, Summerset and Balckmarsh) happened during an inter-dynastic period. The last sacking of Orsinium also took place during this time. There was almost 20 years where there was no Emperor, and things literally went to pot. The Thalmor had already assassinated key leaders throughout the Empire, including Chancelor Ocato (Who had almost single handedly kept the Empire together) and while Titus Mede was still trying to consolidate his possition in Cyrodiil they had already reformed the Domminion through a bloody coup in Valenwood. And you also seem to imply that Morrowind was the Empire's fault... Which is absolute absurdity.

 

So what you're saying is the Empire was and is in fact quite weak. Okay.

 

In this regard i feel i should also point out that under Talos, things weren't any better. Within his reign, he had to put down a rebellion in Hammerfell, one in Blackmarsh, one in Morrowind, along with numerous assassination attempts by the Thalmor and other political rivals. He couldn't even defeat the Thalmor and the first Dominion without the Numidium, a massive brass golem created by the Dwemer, given to him by Vivec. If you're going to judge Mede as weak, then Talos must be doubly so, because Mede has to pretty much reconquer the Empire, without the help of a walking god.

 

???

 

You're sitting there acting like Mede is actually succeeding in conquering any part of Tamriel. Yes, Tiber Septim used the Numidium in his conquest. You're point? Oh wait, you're holding him to a ridiculous standard because it supports your argument. Tiber Septim was given a weapon. Why wouldn't he use it against his foes? Don't sit there and act like Tiber Septim was desperate or whatever nonsense you're trying to assert.

 

First off, history clearly states that the invasion of Hammerfell, not Cyrodiil, was the diversion.

 

First off, you're wrong. Read a book:

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

4E 172-173: The Aldmeri Advance Into Cyrodiil

It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought.

 

Second, histroy states that the Domminion commited the overwhelming majority of its forces to Cyrodiil in an attempt to bring down the Empire completely. It did not take non-commited armies, but rather stripped other offencives and occupations to a skeletal forces (Enough to maintain the distraction) and sent everything else into Cyrodiil. T

 

Its still a massive part of their army.

 

Cyrodiil being the most productive province of the Empire, without rebuilding its resources first, there would be no way to maintain an army in the field. They would starve. While the Empire had won the battle, it could not win the war, and coupled with brutal moral problems, sueing for peace was the only reasonable option.

 

Here's your problem: You're foolishly assuming the forces in Cyrodiil would be going out and doing more fighting. This wouldn't have happened. The forces in Cyrodiil would have only remained in a defensive capacity while Cyrodiil recouped. Skyrim and High Rock would be called upon for offensive troops (and for that matter defensive ones for Cyrodiil) in Hammerfel and resources as well to help out.

 

Continuing the war with the Dominion does not mean going on the offensive against them. Hammerfel showed a defensive war was more than capable of pushing the Dominion post-Great War back into their territory, which is all the Empire would have needed.

 

Its funny. You try to downplay the Hammerfel resistance but at the same time you ignore that the Empire would be facing the same situation, and with the recent defeat the Dominion wouldn't have dared try to attack Cyrodiil again, not only because it would be foolish to attack someone who just destroyed a vast portion of your army immediately after they did so, but also because they simply don't have the forces to do it. Even with the Empire's diminished Legions, the Dominion could not have successfully attack Cyrodiil again. For if they could, then they would not have had such a terrible time in Hammerfel.

 

And the arguement about the clandestine worship fo Talos, again, is based on the absolutely false assertion that worship=existance for the Gods. There are dozens of examples in real world histroy of religious repression being done sucessfully in clandestine environments in order to maintain survival and civil order, from Jews in Babylon to Polytheists in Egypt

 

I'd rather die than be oppressed thank you. I have the next world to look forward to. I care little if I die so long as I stand up for what I believe in.

 

In order to do that, they have to find a way to do something Talos never was able to. They have to defeat the Dominion, and the Thalmor, WITHOUT the Numidium. Everything happening in Skyrim is undermining that.

 

Couple things:

 

1. The Dominion isn't the same was it was back in Tiber Septims time. Far from it.

2. What the Dominion does have for an army is STILL diminished from its last defeat AND the 5 years of warring they had to deal with immediately afterwords.

3. The Empire will never be able to do it regardless. In fact, its the current Empire that needs the Numidium more than Tiber Septim did. The Numidium proved an excellent weapon for Tiber Septim, but that doesn't mean it was his only option nor his only way to defeat the Dominion of his time.

 

Furthermore, i keep hearing claims about 'Hammerfell will never side witht he Empire again'. Where does it say this?

 

Do you really need it spelled out for you? Hammerfel isn't going to ally themselves with the (current) Empire again after it sold them out and left them to the wolves. And need I mention that this was the second time the Empire left Hammerfel to the wolves? If it wasn't for Decianus having a brain, Hammerfel would have been taken entirely by the Dominion even despite its loss in Cyrodiil.

 

The whole 'united under Skyrim' arguement also hinges on the assumption that, given the chance, all men will unite against the Thalmor. That has NEVER happened in Tamriel's history, they have only ever been able to be brought together through violence and conquest. Where do people seem to be getting the idea that this is any different?

 

Because now its quite crucial for mankind to unite, if only in alliance (as opposed to a new Empire), as the Dominion isn't ever going to stop. Either mankind unites and puts down the Dominion now, or it sits in willing blindness until the Dominion comes knocking on their doorstep. If mankind can't do that, then mankind is doomed regardless. This Empire isn't going to stop that.

 

None of this is to say that the Stormcloaks do not have some validity to their rebellion. Sacrificing religious freedoms has never been an easy pill to swallow. To some, it's even worth dieing for, and there is nothing wrong with that conviction. However, it's blatantly obvious that Ulfric is using this fact to further his own politicla agenda, turning (some of) the people of Skyrim against his personal enemies rather than the ones responsible for the religious oppression.

 

The ones responsible are the Dominion yes, but the Empire is also responsible for letting it happen when they had no reason to do so.

 

You can't sit and play the waiting game with the Dominion, a force that is RELIANT on the waiting game and cloak and dagger tactics. That is why the Empire is ultimately doomed no matter who wins the Civil War. They're playing a game they can't afford to lose against an opponent that will never lose the game. And this isn't even going into how the Dominion can impose itself on Empire matters that they have no business being a part of. The Civil War treaty council shows that.

 

A Skyrim lead war against the Dominion is ultimately going to prove the best option against the Dominion, because 1, it will happen within a short timespan. No waiting for years while the Dominion undermines you with cloak and dagger and uses the waiting to build their own forces. 2, because the Dominion simply won't be able to undermine its operation, as it won't have the advantage of already being 25 years ingrained with the leadership. And 3, because Skyrim would actually be able to secure the crucial alliance of Hammerfel.