Crafting Modder's thread

[headbomb]

Alright, I sent a few peoples some PMs so we can coordinate each other on what our mods should and should not do. As of writing, six major mods are of concerned.

 

* CA -- Craftable Arrows (link428) -- Adds recipes for creating Arrows

* LAotB -- Lost Art of the Blacksmith (Impulseve) -- Adds recipes for creating and improving items one should have been able to improve/create in Vanilla

* MC -- More Craftables (AeonVita) -- Adds recipes creating and improving items one shouldn't normally able to create or improve in Vanilla

* SPO -- Smithing Perks Overhaul (Headbomb) -- Makes sure every material type can benefit from double-improvement due to perks, and that the perk-weapon type assignment makes sense.

* VCM -- Val's Crafting Meltdown (Valdosa) -- Lets player break down items into their core components

* WaF -- Weapons and Armors Fixes (Headbomb) -- Gives Weapons & Armors the correct material properties, on top of other things (like correct damage, weapon types, etc...)

 

I think the above presents a nice summary of things, and reflects what people would expect in terms of compatibility / complementarity / modularity.

 

However, this leads to certain problems, which is why I made this thread. These mods kind of overlap into each other's scope. For example, MC adds keywords to certain weapons and armors so they can be double-improved with relevant perks, which is in the scope of WaF or SPO (depending on the exact keywords). LAotB adds crafting recipes for wristguards (which are clothes, rather than Armors, despite having an armor rating), which to me, seems to be something more in the realm of MC than in the realm of LAotB's. Likewise MC adds tempering recipes for Nightingale Armor stuff, which to me seems to be in the scope of LAotB more than it is in MC's. And my own WaF fixes a few recipes (although it does not add any), which dips into LAotB's territory. This stuff makes it very hard for users to pick exactly what they want, because everyone is dipping their toes into each other's pool.

 

So assuming we agree on the scope of each mods, here would be a potential road map for optimal compatibility / not stepping on each others' toes. Details can be discussed, of course.

 

A) Smithing Perks and Overhaul

* No change required, but pay attention to this for which perk creation recipes should depend on, if you want to add a perk pre-requisite.

 

B) Craftable Arrows

* Arrows are marked with ArmorMaterialFoobar keywords, those should probably be switched to WeapMaterialFoobar keywords.

* What about Draugr/Falmer/Forsworn/Nord Hero Arrows?

* Maybe make the crafting depend on the appropriate Smithing perks?

* Conflicts with Val's Crafting Meltdown, but that's OK. Maybe add a notice at the top of your mod saying there's a conflict, and that VCM already includes Craftable Arrows?

 

C) Weapons and Armor Fixes

* Remove recipe fixes (or make sure they are the same as LAotB)

 

D) Lost Art of the Black Smith & More Craftables

 

Transfer responsibility from LAotB to MC

 

 

 

Crafting

 

*RecipeArmorFineArmguards

*RecipeArmorGildedWristbands

*RecipeMiscLockpicks

*RecipeWeaponHeadmansAxe

 

 

 

 

 

Tempering

 

*TemperArmorFineArmguards

*TemperArmorGildedWristbands

*TemperMiscDiademoftheSavant

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation01

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation02

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation03

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation04

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation05

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation06

*TemperTGAmuletofArticulation07

 

 

 

 

Transfer responsibility from MC to LAotB

 

 

 

Crafting

*RecipeAeonFurArmor1

*RecipeAeonFurArmor2

*RecipeAeonFurArmor3

*RecipeAeonFurArmor4

*RecipeAeonFurBracers

*RecipeAeonFurHelmet

*RecipeAeonFurShoes

*RecipeAeonPickaxe

*RecipeAeonScimitar

*RecipeAeonSilverGreatsword

*RecipeAeonSilverSword

*RecipeAeonSkyforgedBattleaxe

*RecipeAeonSkyforgedDagger

*RecipeAeonSkyforgedGreatsword

*RecipeAeonSkyforgedSword

*RecipeAeonSkyforgedWaraxe

*RecipeAeonWoodcuttersAxe

 

 

 

 

 

Tempering

*TemperAeonEbonyMail

*TemperAeonExecutionerAxe

*TemperAeonJagged

*TemperAeonNightingaleArmor

*TemperAeonNightingaleBlade

*TemperAeonNightingaleBoots

*TemperAeonNightingaleBoots

*TemperAeonNightingaleBow

*TemperAeonNightingaleGloves

*TemperAeonNightingaleHood

*TemperAeonShroudedArmor

*TemperAeonShroudedArmorCowlMaskless

*TemperAeonShroudedBoots

*TemperAeonShroudedCowl

*TemperAeonShroudedGloves

*TemperAeonSilverGreatsword

*TemperAeonSilverSword

*TemperAeonThievesGuildArmor

*TemperAeonThievesGuildBoots

*TemperAeonThievesGuildGloves

*TemperAeonThievesGuildHood

*TemperAeonThievesGuildMasterArmor

*TemperAeonThievesGuildMasterBoots

*TemperAeonThievesGuildMasterGloves

*TemperAeonThievesGuildMasterHood

*TemperAeonYngolHelm

 

 

 

E) More Craftables & Weapons and Armor Fixes & Smithing Perks Overhaul

 

Transfer responsibility from MC to WaF

* All erroneous Weapons & Armor materials

 

Transfer responsibility from MC to SPO

* All weapon materials changes so things would benefit from double-improvements

 

F) Vals Crafting Meltdown

* I cannot open the file with SkyEdit. I get an this error:

0x0000EB7D: Bad subrecord size for CNAM! Expected 4 but found 8 bytes!
Invalid input received!

 

After inspection with TESVSnip' date=' the .esp seems to be very non-standard and it looks like it needs to be re-created from scratch. What tool did you use to make it? Did you use very early versions of SkyEdit at any point?

 

 

 

[b']Items themselves[/b]

 

* The Ebony Ingot (IngotEbony) seems to be problematic for one reason or another

* Ancient Nord Arrows (DraugrArrow) should probably be tagged with WeapMaterialDraugr instead of WeapMaterialIron

* Falmer Arrows (FalmerArrow) should probably be tagged with VendorItemArrow and WeapMaterialFalmer instead of nothing, for consistency with your other arrows

* Forsworn Arrows (ForswornArrow) should probably be tagged with VendorItemArrow and WeapMaterialIron instead of nothing, for consistency with your other arrows

* I'm not sure you should be tagging gems with ArmorJewelry. Does this achieve something or did you just add the keyword because you thought it was missing?

 

 

 

 

 

Recipes

Most seem recipes do not seem to overlap with other mods.

* You might want to tie crafting recipes to their relevant Smithing perk. For instance you might want to make the Dwarven Smithing Perk a requisite to be able to melt-down Dwarven gloves.

* Lots of the recipes have "Ignot" instead of "Ingot", nothing that affects the game, but I thought i'd mention it.

 

I would have more remarks, but the .esp is really in poor shape, and I can't make out most of the records.

 

 

 

Conflicts with Craftable Arrows, but that's OK. Maybe add a notice at the top of your mod saying there's a conflict, and that VCM already includes Craftable Arrows?

 

G) Additional Remarks

 

* I note that LAotB has two recipes named TemperWeaponWoodcuttersAxe

* I note that MC has two recipes named TemperAeonNightingaleBoots. Additionally, TemperAeonShroudedArmorCowlMaskless should probably be named TemperAeonShroudedCowlMaskless.

 

Alright that was long, but hopefully clear. Does this sound like a plan to you? Comments? Changes? Questions?

 

Also keep in my those mostly reflect my opinion of what the scope of the mods should be, and that while I have suggestions, you really are in no way obliged to follow them, and there might be other ways to resolve conflicts and make things more compatible with each other.

Edited January 15, 2012 by headbomb

[Impulseve]

Wrist and Armguards are both considered light armor in vanilla. I will transfer the crafting recipes if it reaches consensus, but presently I don't see the need. The Diadem and AoA are considered armor as well and I see no need to remove their Temper coverage.

I am hesitant to remove my misc. forge recipes, as the mod is intended to stand on is own as well as working with others. I talked briefly with Aeon some weeks ago about sharing our common recipes, but nothing came of it. I have no objections to using either of our recipes in both mods.

I would not mind adding the fur armor variations as crafting recipes to LAotB, but I don't feel strongly about them. AFAIK Skyforge weapons are crafted perfectly fine in vanilla with no extra recipes.

 

I'll look for that erroneous Axe entry. - This appears to be confusion between the Temper and Recipe entries. And neither have typos. ;-)

 

Impulseve

Edited January 14, 2012 by Impulseve

[headbomb]

The Armguards/Wristguards situation is a total mess. Which is why I suggested for MC to take care of them. But if we can agree on how to solve their crisis of identity, maybe it would make more sense for LAotB to take care of the Tempering, and MC to take care of the crafting. The big thing to remember is that things having Armor Ratings is not indicative of them being Armors. Several clothes-types of items do have armor ratings, and this is not a mistake (Shrouded Hand Wraps, e.g.).

 

Some properties hint at them being intended to be clothes. Others hint at them being intended to be armors. I honestly have no idea what is the intended behaviour (and I have no idea how to resolve the situation in WaF).

 

If we go by EditorIDs (ClothesJarlGloves and ClothesJarlGloves02), they should be clothes.

If we go by the fact that they have armor ratings, they should be armors. However several pieces of clothes have do have armors ratings, and they really ARE clothes.

If we go by keywords, we have a mess.

* For the Guilded Wristguards, you have ArmorLight, ArmorGauntlets, VendorItemArmor (and no ArmorMaterial Keyword). > Looks like a typical Armor

* For the Fine Armguards, you have ArmorClothing, ArmorGauntlets, and VendorItemClothing (and no ArmorMaterial Keyword). > Inconstant, but a lot closer to Clothes than Armors.

 

Keeping in mind these two items have the same in-universe purpose, this makes them very weird/special items, at least as far as vanilla goes. And IMO, weird/ special items are in the scope of MC.

 

For the Diadem the situation is clearer, but not very clear. The Diadem is a circlet and is clearly mage-centric, and several mage builds are actually harmed by armors (Mage Armor perk need you to not be wearing any armor). ALL other circlets are consistently tagged with the proper keywords (ArmorJewelry, ClothingCirclet, JewelryExpensive,VendorItemJewelry) but this one is just a mess (ArmorHelmet, ClothingCirclet, MagicDisallowEnchanting,VendorItemArmor) [for one, it should only have one ArmorHelmet or ClothingCirclet, not both, and lacks either the ArmorLight or ArmorHeavy keywords]. By in-universe function, this is not a helmet (armor), this is a circlet (clothing). I really doubt this one should be temperable, so to play on the safe side, I would lump it into MC's "Craftable Artifact" section, if it needs to be tempered. WaF will make it a true circlet, when I get to it.

 

For the Amulet of Articulation, it's almost open-and-shut. None of the keywords are related to armor (JewelryExpensive, VendorItemJewelry), and in-universe this is certainly not armor.

 

Forge Skyforge Steel stuff, Vanilla has Skyforge Steel Armors. I don't see why those Skyforge Steel weapons would be considered special (althought they certainly do need to depend on the SkyforgeSmithing perk).

 

Wow that was long. But yeah, you can see I did think about those issues at a great length. :P

Edited January 14, 2012 by headbomb

[headbomb]

Re: TemperWoodcuttersAxe . The one with FormID 832060 should probably be named TemperWeaponWoodsmansFriend, is what I mean.

 

I also just noticed an existing vanilla Recipe without fixes. TemperArmorDA03Masque (FormID 108ff5), which is obviously for the Masque of Clavicus Vile (ClavicusVileMask). You should probably that one instead of making your own (TemperArmorClavicusVileMasque, FormID 832015). If the name inconsistency annoys you, you can rename the vanilla EditorID without consequences.

Edited January 14, 2012 by headbomb

[AeonVita]

It's great that you're taken the initiative on these things headbomb. About removing stuff from mine, I basically say the same thing Impulseve say about his, I want users to be able to use it on it's own, without feeling that they'd really want an item that's removed. I could make them share the same requirements though. I think they are pretty similar currently, but I'd gladly change mine if those in Impulsive's are just as good. I know that I've taken a lot more "freedoms" in my mod when adding stuff, in LAofB there are only very "natural" recipes, so there's of course a distinction there. That LAofB only would add stuff that pretty obviously should have been in the game. It's difficult to draw the line though. And Impulsive may want to be able to add items that everyone doesn't think "one shouldn't normally able to create or improve in Vanilla".

 

About the Skyforge items, they are actually not craftable at all in the vanilla game for what I can tell. I've simple made them craftable only at the Skyforge, with the same recipe as the normal steel items.

 

I may post a small guide about making the mods multilangual using the Skyrim Strings Localizer tool if anyone is interested. To start with you can find all the Skyrim string files that I know of here. There are files for these languages: English, Czech, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Polish and Japanese. I hope there isn't any copyright issue involved with distributing these, they're just meant to be used as modders resources though, and for what I can tell it would be just as bad to post anything on the nexus based on anything owned by Bethesda.

 

Edit:

Reply to: "I note that MC has two recipes named TemperAeonNightingaleBoots. Additionally, TemperAeonShroudedArmorCowlMaskless should probably be named TemperAeonShroudedCowlMaskless."

 

I could easily fix that, thanks for noticing. I've not really bothered to change the EDID, or choose names carefully, at any time, since I don't see that it would matter at all to the user. It may be problematic in Skyedit somehow, I've barely ever used it, TESVSnip works exceptionally fine for me currently.

Edited January 14, 2012 by AeonVita

[Impulseve]

Skyforge weapons are enabled after finishing the companions quest, I think. The Masque upgrade probably has a similar requirement for its shrine quest if I missed the vanilla upgrade. Same for a few other common items, like the thieves guild leader armor.

[valdosa]

Aye guys, I'm not pulling arrows from my mod being as im making um...well...A LOT of new things currently now that my computer is back. Renaming the EDID on mine I don't care to do because well, as Aeon said that's got zero effect on the users.

[AeonVita]

Skyforge weapons are enabled after finishing the companions quest, I think. The Masque upgrade probably has a similar requirement for its shrine quest if I missed the vanilla upgrade. Same for a few other common items, like the thieves guild leader armor.

 

I thought so as well first, but it's just the Nord Hero weapons and armor that you're able to make after completing the questline.

"It's impossible to actually forge Skyforge Steel weaponry; these can only be obtained from Eorlund, either via purchase or the freebie provided upon official Companions membership."

Source: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Smithing#Skyforge

[Impulseve]

Ah, my mistake. In that case, I'd be interested in lifting the recipes from your mod, Aeon. :-)

[headbomb]

Alright, I apologize for not being here in the last few days, I got banned on account of a misunderstanding, and after my unbanning I got busy with other projects (such as my guide on how to make successful mods, link in signature).

 

I'm doing an update for WAF, and then we can resume these talks of intermods coordination. One thing I apparently was wrong about i thought LAotB and MC were supposed to complement each other. If they are both supposed to be standalones, then a lot of my advice would need to be changed :P.