ordodementia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Alright children today we're going to have a little history lesson about the nature of Bullet Proofing and guns. What for you ask? Everyone says these things don't fit in a fantasy genre? It's not medieval? That is where you are wrong class, guns existed in the old world and frankly while they were powerful they were not game breaking at the time. Indeed up until the 15th and maybe early 16th century steel plate breastplates were still coined "Bullet proof". Indeed the term was coined by the armor makers themselves, proof was when a bullet was fired at the armor and the resulting dent in the armor was considered "bullet proof". Why meditate on this? Because steel was as far as the Middle ages as anyone ever got. Malachite, Orcish, Daedric, Ebony, Dragonbone etc. are all considered even stronger than Steel for the purpose of armor. So perhaps guns would need to have an armor pierce enchant at higher levels to do competitive damage? Just a thought, or different levels of bullets to make them competitive with the the higher levels of armor. anyway I don't care if this becomes a discussion, it's just a thought, throwing it out there. Yup . . . . out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forteverum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Alright children today we're going to have a little history lesson about the nature of Bullet Proofing and guns. What for you ask? Everyone says these things don't fit in a fantasy genre? It's not medieval? That is where you are wrong class, guns existed in the old world and frankly while they were powerful they were not game breaking at the time. Indeed up until the 15th and maybe early 16th century steel plate breastplates were still coined "Bullet proof". Indeed the term was coined by the armor makers themselves, proof was when a bullet was fired at the armor and the resulting dent in the armor was considered "bullet proof". Why meditate on this? Because steel was as far as the Middle ages as anyone ever got. Malachite, Orcish, Daedric, Ebony, Dragonbone etc. are all considered even stronger than Steel for the purpose of armor. So perhaps guns would need to have an armor pierce enchant at higher levels to do competitive damage? Just a thought, or different levels of bullets to make them competitive with the the higher levels of armor. anyway I don't care if this becomes a discussion, it's just a thought, throwing it out there. Yup . . . . out there. That's right. You'd buy a Milanese steel breastplate, and you'd want to see the bullet dent with the maker's signature mark next to it. Of course, leaving guns aside, I'd even be happy just to see a fluted Milanese armor mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordodementia Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 That's right. You'd buy a Milanese steel breastplate, and you'd want to see the bullet dent with the maker's signature mark next to it. Of course, leaving guns aside, I'd even be happy just to see a fluted Milanese armor mod. Oooh and more classic German Gothic styles and cuirboulli leather armor, nearly akin to cheaper plate, especially since you can use lower grade steel under the boiled leather, or brigantine armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffman12 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Seeing as malachite is more of a stone/crystal, wouldn't it be prone to ablate on impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordodementia Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Seeing as malachite is more of a stone/crystal, wouldn't it be prone to ablate on impact?Depends, it might have impact properties akin to a more durable type of ceramic. Otherwise it's use as an armor would be highly suspect already considering any type of mace of hammer would easily crush it in combat. Yet it ranks higher than steel, aye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffman12 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This is true. But I just realized that type of thing doesn't matter anymore, bethesda removed armor and weapon condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunytic Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) The other part of guns not being overpowered were: 1. Until rifling became prevalent in the 19th century, guns were not particularly accurate. 2. Firing times were very low - if the mod is to be 'realistic' 1 shot per minute every 20 skill would be fairly accurate (a veteran soldier was supposted to be able to what, stuff 3 musketballs and fire them in 1 minute before muskets became obsolete? - so that would be 40 skill, which would be fairly typical of a good soldier?) 3. You'd need some sort of vision impairment effect if you tried to aim, as until bullets were created the order was ready, fire, since you couldn't aim without being temporarily blinded (or worse) by the ignition of the charge (smoke and fire right in front of your eyes). 4. To be accurate you'd need Skyrim armor to treat bullets differently. Right now it is armor reduction, you'd need it to be a binary block/no block followed by armor reduction. (% chance of penetration, then, if successful damage * Damage reduction factor). **** I think when most people think about using guns in a medival setting they really aren't looking to play realistically :D I mean... a 60 second cooldown until skill 20, and at best a 10 second CD at skill 100... :P All that being said... If a good gun mod is something you want and there is a good modder out there interested, best luck. Skyrim is a single-player game where if the mod is something you'd enjoy, more power too ya! Good luck :-) Edited January 16, 2012 by Lunytic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordodementia Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 The other part of guns not being overpowered were: 1. Until rifling became prevalent in the 19th century, guns were not particularly accurate. 2. Firing times were very low - if the mod is to be 'realistic' 1 shot per minute every 20 skill would be fairly accurate (a veteran soldier was supposted to be able to what, stuff 3 musketballs and fire them in 1 minute before muskets became obsolete? - so that would be 40 skill, which would be fairly typical of a good soldier?) 3. You'd need some sort of vision impairment effect if you tried to aim, as until bullets were created the order was ready, fire, since you couldn't aim without being temporarily blinded (or worse) by the ignition of the charge (smoke and fire right in front of your eyes). 4. To be accurate you'd need Skyrim armor to treat bullets differently. Right now it is armor reduction, you'd need it to be a binary block/no block followed by armor reduction. (% chance of penetration, then, if successful damage * Damage reduction factor). **** I think when most people think about using guns in a medival setting they really aren't looking to play realistically :D I mean... a 60 second cooldown until skill 20, and at best a 10 second CD at skill 100... :P All that being said... If a good gun mod is something you want and there is a good modder out there interested, best luck. Skyrim is a single-player game where if the mod is something you'd enjoy, more power too ya! Good luck :-) Perhaps you could have a heavy four chambered barrel that takes a while to reload and the aiming could be offset by weight and each skill up could increase accuracy by compensating for weight and a separate skill fo reloading or something. Frankly coming back to number four of your itinerary I think this should apply to arrows as well. Perhaps we could further say added non-piercing damage from the bullet and arrow hitting plate, not piercing, but causing percussion damage by forcing shock waves into the body cavity. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunytic Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Perhaps you could have a heavy four chambered barrel that takes a while to reload and the aiming could be offset by weight and each skill up could increase accuracy by compensating for weight and a separate skill fo reloading or something. Frankly coming back to number four of your itinerary I think this should apply to arrows as well. Perhaps we could further say added non-piercing damage from the bullet and arrow hitting plate, not piercing, but causing percussion damage by forcing shock waves into the body cavity. Food for thought. I think... that would be over-thinking it :D No, here's one case where something reasonably early in gun development but functions much more like a newer gun would make for better gameplay. I think there was another thread in the mod requests talking about making a musket that shot mini-fireballs/ice balls/lighting balls powered by soulgems... Now... that being something you found deep in a dwemer ruin, that they were researching right before they disappeared to make their fights go better... now that might be a more gameplay (and lore-wise) friendly option? Maybe you have to 'reload' the soulgem after every x shots. 5 for petty, 10 for lesser, 15 for common, 30 for greater, and 60 for grand (souls quality, not gem quality). Then skill ups increase accuracy and damage, like a bow. (or at least bows seem to be more accurate the more skilled I became). Ultimately, there's no bad solution as long as you enjoy the mod :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordodementia Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Perhaps you could have a heavy four chambered barrel that takes a while to reload and the aiming could be offset by weight and each skill up could increase accuracy by compensating for weight and a separate skill fo reloading or something. Frankly coming back to number four of your itinerary I think this should apply to arrows as well. Perhaps we could further say added non-piercing damage from the bullet and arrow hitting plate, not piercing, but causing percussion damage by forcing shock waves into the body cavity. Food for thought. I think... that would be over-thinking it :D No, here's one case where something reasonably early in gun development but functions much more like a newer gun would make for better gameplay. I think there was another thread in the mod requests talking about making a musket that shot mini-fireballs/ice balls/lighting balls powered by soulgems... Now... that being something you found deep in a dwemer ruin, that they were researching right before they disappeared to make their fights go better... now that might be a more gameplay (and lore-wise) friendly option? Maybe you have to 'reload' the soulgem after every x shots. 5 for petty, 10 for lesser, 15 for common, 30 for greater, and 60 for grand (souls quality, not gem quality). Then skill ups increase accuracy and damage, like a bow. (or at least bows seem to be more accurate the more skilled I became). Ultimately, there's no bad solution as long as you enjoy the mod :D agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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