Any Word On The Creation Kit?

[Lehcar]

Frustrating... I do think Bethesda missed a HUGE opportunity here by not having the CK out sooner. People move on. When you have the kit on day one everyone is excited and jumps right in creating new content and exciting mods while everyone is still pumped up and playing the game. Now we are getting to a timeframe where most people who have purchased have done so... and many people have already run through the existing content many times. By now, if the CK was out there would be tons of new content that players would be swimming in. Instead their attention is going elsewhere.

 

Sadly from a business perspective I believe they did use people a bit and i believe the big opportunities of the CK are fleeting. They pumped the CK and constantly made game purchasers feel it was just around the corner. Here it we are in Feburary. and it is still just around the corner.

 

Great game...but i don't blame people for being a bit angry that three months out and no CK. I'm all for getting it right but I think that with a CK you can release in a far more raw form. Modders would have made it work and could have dealt with some bugs here and there. Instead nothing.

 

Now Bethesda may as well wait until they have an expansion ready and then release the CK with the expansion with another big round of media blitz and a special price if you buy the orig game + expansion.

 

From a business perspective, the modding community is pretty much the only thing that's keeping Oblivion and Morrowind selling after all these years.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Lehcar

[Guardianl]

I knew this would happen, they are continuously lying to their consumers. They most likely will wait till feb 6th or 7th for the KOA game.

 

Finally somebody has been paying attention! But as in an IT company myself... not meeting your promised date is very, very bad rep...

No matter how much excuse one comes up unless it's very valid this isn’t in “BETH” case... Hence why people commented why 11.11.2011 it sounded nice and flashy but ended to be just as a gimmick. Of fleeting promises of the actual content....

The reason why people are frustrated and somewhat pissed is because... they could and should have taken more time on the game as a whole.

As a company its good too, think and create new things for the consumers. But if the consumers say no a couple of times don't be surprised they take their money elsewhere.... (known since fallout)

 

BTW KOA looks very promising me like. Play the demo it's out! Reminds me of too much of wow though... oh well it's about the gameplay and they nailed it so far...

[shiftyoliver]

Oh, the irony! Those poor guys just can't win.

 

When the game was released, Bethesda was criticized for sticking to an arbitrary release date and therefore releasing an unfinished product. When they would not give a date for the CK release, they were criticized for not communicating this important information to the players. They quick-released a buggy patch and were criticized for the debacle that became. They enacted a beta program for patches and were criticized for using people who bought the game as beta testers. They give us a date for the CK and a new, beta-tested (and therefore hopefully working and effective) patch. They missed that date because, apparently, the software is not yet bug-free. Now we criticize them for not keeping their promised dates.

 

The point is that the only way they can make everyone happy is to give us a date for something (because if they don't, then they're not communicating with us), preferably ASAP (or we'll likely criticize them for taking so long). Then release whatever they promised us, first thing in the morning (because we'll be complaining by noon) and in pristine working condition (but without beta testing by players). I don't think that's ever going to happen. So they probably won't ever be able to make us happy. So I say again: Those poor guys just can't win. :tongue:

 

Or they could do like companies that dont make games or movies do, If i say ill have such and such done by a certain time and its not quality or complete i get canned. So heres what i do i actually set a time and or date that i complete that in if i have unforeseen problems i get some help to complete that goal it cost the company more but they save face by completing the goal in the time they set. Beth is real close to getting canned for me they'll do fine without my 60 dollars next time i'm sure but im also not the only one who feels this way.

 

I can see your point. However, I don't think debugging software is quite like that. They set a date and the product isn't ready. They can't just bring in more hands to get the job done faster. Nor is there an uber expert they can call on who's just going to walk in and say "Oh, here's your problem." They can't even just fire everybody and hire better talent. They've already got the best they could find. And from rabidNode's post, if there's legal issues holding something back, then everything is out the window until the lawyers get around to picking it up.

 

I've no doubt that as a company, they're doing their level best to produce. But they can't win that race, no matter how hard they try. So they have my sympathy, even as I grind my teeth waiting for the next patch and the CK.

 

Actually, yes it is like that. I already had this conversation with an employee at Bethesda some time ago but he seemed like a nice guy so I wasn't going to rain on his parade. He basically made the sob story of "we worked really hard for this guys, appreciate what we did." But as I said to him, these guy's aren't doing it for charity. You make promises, you're getting paid, you better go through with it. He also mentions how much it strains his relations with family, friends etc...but that is the career path he choose to take, so no sympathy there.

 

It sort of annoys me how much leniency game companies get. Our company does contract work, a client requests an app and a list of features they want to go along with it. We send them the cost and a feasible deadline. Contract signed. Now it's our responibility to finish this on time. If we don't finish it, or the client feels we haven't fulfilled the contract terms, I don't get paid. We work overtime with no pay to finish it.

 

It doesn't matter how hard we worked and the amount of hours, the client only looks at the bottom line.

We can't simply give it them and say "Pay us some more money and we'll release some patches at a later date." Or the app will be on the shelves, buy it and we'll fix it in the future.

 

Therefore it is imperative that we scrutinize if the client's demands are reasonable in the given time frame. Once it's signed, again, it's our responsilibility to go through with our end. We don't make promises we can't keep. We also don't add extra features that aren't part of the agreed terms.

 

I"m not exactly sure with your logic as to why "they can't just bring in more hands they can't get the job done faster." 2 minds are better than one. I can do a much bigger project with a team than on my own. What are you getting at? If you have more people, you can get to your first build faster, if you have your build done earlier, you can spend more time debugging.

 

In my short time as a software developer there was one project we bit off more than we could chew. We did end up having to hire a specialist, who demand ridiculous amounts of money. Bethesda Game Studio's could hire more, if their budget allowed it. If they can't afford to hire more to fulfill their objectives on time that's their problem.

 

As much as I think Bethesda is a decent game company they tend to be big dreamers but their implentations of some of their big dreams ends up being incredibly half-assed. They do tend to bite off more then they can chew and over hype way to much. Radiant AI in Oblivion popping into my head.

 

Personally I find their marketing department to be much more talented. I admit to buying into their hype when I should be a lot more level headed.

[WOTmodsproductions]

Its not just all that, but if you are on a job contract and lets say you need a couple extra days. You contact your client and say ' look sorry its going to take a bit longer than expected, we are all going to work overtime to get the job done, we'll do it as soon as possible'

And hope they say, ok just get on with it

With bethesda, they have overshot their deadline and given us the same very very vauge deadline of 'soon', or 'its days away' which has now simply turned into 'sometime this week# and 'after the 1.4, the CK wont be far behind' which as we all know 'not far behind' in terms of games could be up to a year perhaps.

Im comparing past experiences with DLC, bethesda have said upon release of games like fallout 3 basically 'heres the game, the DLC wont be far behind'

Months and months later we get a DLC, im not bashing bethesda on the work they have done, they have done an amazing job.

What im bashing them on is their decisions they have made:

Steam = fail for 1

Updating their deadlines that are getting further and further away.

Intergrating steam workshop into CK, why not just release a beta CK with the game (as it was apparently ready, just waiting on the steam workshop which we are still waiting for)

Then when the steam workshop version is avaliable, then update the CK.

 

If they would just say:

'We are really behind on the CK, but please stay with us its expected to be finished by end of febuary'

I would then go onto other games and come back

But when they give us zero information (saying its going to be out by the end of the week isnt info when they have been saying that all month) they cant expect people to keep playing.

 

I see it as this:

I bought the game

50% of replaability and me buying future DLC rests on the basic game itself and of me playing it goes to a company that actually cares, keeps its customers up to date and lets them know they are having problems (this has kept me following bugthesda up until now)

50% because of modding ability on a game, I can play a game for as long as anyone else, but when you have exausted it, its time to do some modding. If I cant mod or get mods that add new content to refresh my gaming experience (for example my immersion mod to make the world a lot more living would give me endless new things to do)

 

Whoever said that morrowind and oblivion are still alive thanks to mods , they are right.

I bought oblivion the day it came out, and played it right through to 2 weeks before skyrim came out, then I bought a new PC for skyrim.

I didnt want to put Oblivion down as I was playing a dead is dead character vampire that was 2000years old in game days, I had such an epic story and played every mod in oblivion more or less and was still nor board. I didnt want to put down that game, and sometimes I wish I hadnt got rid of my old computer where all those mods and saves were.

[dreamingof2004]

Yea good mods keep games like Oblivion and Morrowind going strong for a long time it amazes me how many still play them and like the 2 above me have said it is solely because of the mods. I thought about messing around with it tonight but had something else going on i might hop on one of them and await the CK soon tho.

[masseffectman1]

Oh, the irony! Those poor guys just can't win.

 

When the game was released, Bethesda was criticized for sticking to an arbitrary release date and therefore releasing an unfinished product. When they would not give a date for the CK release, they were criticized for not communicating this important information to the players. They quick-released a buggy patch and were criticized for the debacle that became. They enacted a beta program for patches and were criticized for using people who bought the game as beta testers. They give us a date for the CK and a new, beta-tested (and therefore hopefully working and effective) patch. They missed that date because, apparently, the software is not yet bug-free. Now we criticize them for not keeping their promised dates.

 

The point is that the only way they can make everyone happy is to give us a date for something (because if they don't, then they're not communicating with us), preferably ASAP (or we'll likely criticize them for taking so long). Then release whatever they promised us, first thing in the morning (because we'll be complaining by noon) and in pristine working condition (but without beta testing by players). I don't think that's ever going to happen. So they probably won't ever be able to make us happy. So I say again: Those poor guys just can't win. :tongue:

 

Or they could do like companies that dont make games or movies do, If i say ill have such and such done by a certain time and its not quality or complete i get canned. So heres what i do i actually set a time and or date that i complete that in if i have unforeseen problems i get some help to complete that goal it cost the company more but they save face by completing the goal in the time they set. Beth is real close to getting canned for me they'll do fine without my 60 dollars next time i'm sure but im also not the only one who feels this way.

 

I can see your point. However, I don't think debugging software is quite like that. They set a date and the product isn't ready. They can't just bring in more hands to get the job done faster. Nor is there an uber expert they can call on who's just going to walk in and say "Oh, here's your problem." They can't even just fire everybody and hire better talent. They've already got the best they could find. And from rabidNode's post, if there's legal issues holding something back, then everything is out the window until the lawyers get around to picking it up.

 

I've no doubt that as a company, they're doing their level best to produce. But they can't win that race, no matter how hard they try. So they have my sympathy, even as I grind my teeth waiting for the next patch and the CK.

 

Actually, yes it is like that. I already had this conversation with an employee at Bethesda some time ago but he seemed like a nice guy so I wasn't going to rain on his parade. He basically made the sob story of "we worked really hard for this guys, appreciate what we did." But as I said to him, these guy's aren't doing it for charity. You make promises, you're getting paid, you better go through with it. He also mentions how much it strains his relations with family, friends etc...but that is the career path he choose to take, so no sympathy there.

 

It sort of annoys me how much leniency game companies get. Our company does contract work, a client requests an app and a list of features they want to go along with it. We send them the cost and a feasible deadline. Contract signed. Now it's our responibility to finish this on time. If we don't finish it, or the client feels we haven't fulfilled the contract terms, I don't get paid. We work overtime with no pay to finish it.

 

It doesn't matter how hard we worked and the amount of hours, the client only looks at the bottom line.

We can't simply give it them and say "Pay us some more money and we'll release some patches at a later date." Or the app will be on the shelves, buy it and we'll fix it in the future.

 

Therefore it is imperative that we scrutinize if the client's demands are reasonable in the given time frame. Once it's signed, again, it's our responsilibility to go through with our end. We don't make promises we can't keep. We also don't add extra features that aren't part of the agreed terms.

 

I"m not exactly sure with your logic as to why "they can't just bring in more hands they can't get the job done faster." 2 minds are better than one. I can do a much bigger project with a team than on my own. What are you getting at? If you have more people, you can get to your first build faster, if you have your build done earlier, you can spend more time debugging.

 

In my short time as a software developer there was one project we bit off more than we could chew. We did end up having to hire a specialist, who demand ridiculous amounts of money. Bethesda Game Studio's could hire more, if their budget allowed it. If they can't afford to hire more to fulfill their objectives on time that's their problem.

 

As much as I think Bethesda is a decent game company they tend to be big dreamers but their implentations of some of their big dreams ends up being incredibly half-assed. They do tend to bite off more then they can chew and over hype way to much. Radiant AI in Oblivion popping into my head.

 

Personally I find their marketing department to be much more talented. I admit to buying into their hype when I should be a lot more level headed.

 

Great post, you speak the truth. It seems too many folks treat game developers as charity organizations, with posts like "hey, lay off them, they did their best" and "if YOU think you can make a better game then go ahead". I also have a business, i get paid to do a job, and i'd better do it properly and on time or i'm in trouble.

 

I've always asserted that there needs to be some type of independent organization within the videogame industry that monitors the quality of outputted product (the games) and enforces standards. If SONY made a television with defunct remotes, it would be re-called, or fixed before even going to production, not so with modern games where shoddy codes are released on a bi-monthly basis. Of course, you'll always get the people who say: "hey man, no game can be perfect", well, to that i say, it can be technically close to perfect, it's something that us, as paying consumers, deserve. It is entitlement, $60 = 95% technically sound product.

[masseffectman1]

Here is the word on the creation kit. They had it done when they launched the game but they could not release it because the workshop was not complete. It is highly likely steam owns rights or there are other legal frameworks that are going to restrict it. It will get released when steam integration is complete.

 

After all the years of Bethesda really backing the free flow of modding I think they finally gave in and changed.

I would not be surprised at all if steam monitors ck use in some way since it will be likely you will need to launch steam to use the ck itself.

 

The confusion and amount of hackery that has had to go on because we did not just get the ck and also can not look directly at patches is just a slap in the face to the modding community in general.

As far as finishing touches on the ck. It is a set of tools. The game was ready after the tools. finishing touches is all steam stuff.

 

Nexus is not ready for the changes this vampiric workshop is going to bring. This particular community in general is going to change a lot from skyrim until the next tes game.

sad but true...

 

Agreed, this "Steam Workshop" rubbish doesn't get me excited at all. For those of us with common sense, it is obviously a marketing plan to bring in more cash, somehow.

[masseffectman1]

Oh Bethesda - as much as I do enjoy your games, I knew you were biting off more than you could chew with this one. Building a new patch AND releasing the CK on time? Tsk tsk, you knew it would be either one or the other being on time, not both.

 

But, you know what Bethesda? I still love you guys, especially since you put up with me and everyone else whining about the CK being late. We flame because we love you guys.

 

As for me...well, I'll be playing Morrowind. Feel free to drop me a wizard from the sky when the CK is released, Bethesda. I'll be waiting patiently. :3

 

No, they didn't bite off too much, seeing as the CK would have to have been technically finished by game release, Steam integration held it back. Also, this "i'll do anything for you [insert game developer here], even if you treat us consumers as kids" attitude saddens me. We need to behave like people whom have paid for a product, not bend over and let Bethesda, well, you know...

[xrws31]

With bethesda, they have overshot their deadline and given us the same very very vauge deadline of 'soon', or 'its days away' which has now simply turned into 'sometime this week# and 'after the 1.4, the CK wont be far behind' which as we all know 'not far behind' in terms of games could be up to a year perhaps.

 

If they would just say:

'We are really behind on the CK, but please stay with us its expected to be finished by end of febuary'

I would then go onto other games and come back

But when they give us zero information (saying its going to be out by the end of the week isnt info when they have been saying that all month) they cant expect people to keep playing.

 

Totally agreed; this is what's annoying people.

 

Nobody's gonna die if they don't have the CK for a few weeks, the actual date of release is not the critical factor here. If they had said from the start that it won't be out until March, then nobody would be up in arms right now.

 

What *does* upset people is being ignored and denied information, and what little information they do get turns out to be false hopes and broken promises. They would get *so* much more respect if right now they just said "not yet ready, planned release 20th february", or something to that effect, rather than every single day between now and then leaving a twitter message saying "it's almost there".

[eltucu]

"They've already got the best they could find" huh?

 

We dont know that. If the best they could find dont know bout compiler flags, nor has any idea bout coding decent shaders that dont poop out after a few dynamic lights in screen, then maybe they didnt searched too much...

 

It sort of annoys me how much leniency game companies get.

We, as video game consumers, are a stupid bunch IMO:

 

- CD Key? No problem.

- Connect to server for activation? Okay.

- Permanent connection? Im on facebook/twitter most of the time anyway.

- Company gets paid twice if the game is sold used? Sure, i almost saved 10 bucks there by not buying it new! Glad that you were there to remind me that i still have to pay the full price somehow.

- Limited installations? Bring it on! I like to count!

- Day one patch? I got bandwidth to spare.

- Pay full price both on retail and downloadable version? Yay, equality!

- Patch two after a month? And its free? Oh you care so much for ur costumers, ur teh best develuper evar <3

- Region locked games even if you bought it from a multi national online service? Of course, otherwise i may press the Install in French button by mistake!

- 1 to 1 conversion between Dollar and Euro? Yay, equality again!

And the list goes on and on...

Edited February 1, 2012 by eltucu