Merged, Bash, or both

[AJStoner]

Hey all, I had a question. I am using NMM for New Vegas and a Merged Patch made with FNVEdit. My load order is on the heavy side so I installed Wrye Flash. Now, I have heard both that you can use a bashed patch with your FNV merged patch and that you shouldn't. What is the deal here?

[dubiousintent]

The simplistic answer is: "You can use both". The more complete, truthful answer is: "but only if you know and understand the difference in what they each do. Otherwise they will step on each other". And completely by-passes the "reduce your plugin count" solution called a "Merged Plugin". Suggest you read the wiki article "Merged Plugin Guidelines for Personal Use" which covers the topic beyond simply "how to".

 

-Dubious-

Edited March 24, 2017 by dubiousintent

[AJStoner]

Okay, thanks for that link, going over that now. Bash patches cover all the functions of merged patches, correct? I use them for Skyrim (I heard somewhere-a Gopher vid I think) that Skyrim doesn't support merged patches from TESVEdit.

 

So, if I am going to use just one, the bash patch would seem the way to go then since it will eliminate a few plugins. Am I getting that right?

[dubiousintent]

Basically, yes. The "bashed patch" (BP) uses an algorithm along with "bash tags" to determine the winning records in conflicts. A "merge patch" is manually created, so you have total control to ensure the winner is the specific record YOU want. OTOH, if you frequently make changes to your "load order" (LO), then the BP is simply easier and quicker than the manual build process, as either has to be performed every time you change the LO (to include mod updates). The combined approach is a "merge patch" after the BP to ensure your specific record preference overrides the BP choice.

 

-Dubious-

[AJStoner]

So, to folloiw up regarding the combined method, I should make the Based Patch, then create a merged patch and have it come after. Will FNV Edit try to incorporate the Bashed patch into the Merged Patch? If yes, is this a good idea or should I deactivate the BP first to prevent it?

 

I tried JUST the BP but (because not everything has the tage) some things were being left out.

 

EDIT: 2nd question. Do Merged Patches have a maximum number of mods they will include? I have noticed that Weapons of the New Melenia are not showing up at vendors like they used to. Its "leveled Lists" esp doesn't appear in my Merged Patch (don't recall if it ever did though its weapons used to show up at vendors like the Gun Runners and now don't).

Edited March 27, 2017 by AJStoner

[dubiousintent]

1. gromulos just "pinned" a thread with "step-by-step" instructions on the subject of combining the use of a "merged patch" with the "Bashed patch" in the "Troubleshooting" section. Recommend you read that, as it has more recent information I find quite rational and recently updated the "Merged Plugin Guidelines for Personal Use" to reflect (i.e. the "Merged Patch" goes before the "Bashed Patch" because LOOT now recognizes it when named as "TES5Merged.esp").

 

2. Carefully consider just what you want each "merged versus bashed" file to accomplish. You can add "appropriate" bash tags to any mod. (There is a script in FNVEdit for the purpose of telling which are appropriate, but it won't tell you if you really want that plugin's record to be tagged as the "winner". That's a personal preference decision.) But only the last record will "win" if there is "more than one" identical records with such a tag.

 

3. If the BP "left something out" you need to clarify just what and why you think it did so. The BP resolves "record level conflicts" between more than one plugin. (See the "Rule of One" in the "FNV General Mod Use Advice" article for why this is so important a distinction.) The purpose of the "bash tag" is to cause an earlier loading record to "win" over a latter loading one that otherwise would win instead. "No conflict = nothing to resolve" and the record is loaded as part of the plugin by the game engine as usual.

 

Whether or not a plugin gets completely merged into the BP (and then "ghosted") is a separate issue from "record conflicts". You need to "mark mergeable" every time before you "rebuild the patch".

 

I apologize for failing to previously mention the "Wrye Bash Pictorial Guide", where this is covered. This tutorial is an excellent way to learn various features of WB/WF. I recommend you work through the various sections as needed, which is how it is designed.

 

-Dubious-

[AJStoner]

Thank you! All useful. regarding the adding of Bash Tags, I found the script in FNVEdit but it only seems to tell you the tags it SHOULD have but does not add them. How is that accomplished (adding the tags)?

[dubiousintent]

Correction: The xEdit script lists "possible" valid tags. Whether or not they are the records you want to be the winners (in which case they should be applied) is a personal choice. Just don't apply any tags not listed for that plugin. Simply ensuring a particular plugin is placed later in the "load order" than ones it conflicts with will also ensure it is the winner (unless the earlier loading has tags). Tags should only be needed when you can't force the mod you prefer to load later than a conflicting one without other problems.

 

To add/remove "bash tags" to a plugin, use Wrye (Bash/Flash):

 

On the "Mods" tab, in the right-hand panel of information that begins with "File:" (followed by "Author", "Modified", "Description:", etc.), at the bottom is a box field labelled: "Bash Tags:" (which may have some or be empty). <Right-Click> in that box and it will bring up a context menu with a list of possible "Bash Tags". At the top of that context menu are two exclusive options: "Automatic" and "Copy to Description". "Automatic" (the default) means it will use the "Bash Tags" found in LOOT and the description of the mod. The "Copy" option will copy those (and any you add in that box) to the mod description field so it will have them there after.

 

So, any tags already present will have a "check" next to their name in that context menu.

* Click on any tags you want to add to "enable" (check) them, or uncheck any you want to remove. Remember that in the case of duplicate records with the same tag, the later loading record "wins", so be frugal with them.

* Then "uncheck" the "Automatic" option (which will close that context menu).

* Re-open the context menu (<right-click> again), and click (enable) the "Copy to Description" option. (That will close the context menu again.)

Note that the "Description:" field in that panel now has the bash tags listed within double braces: i.e. "{{BASH:<tag>,<tag>}}".

* Re-open the context menu (<right-click> again), and click (enable) the "Automatic" option to restore it as the default (which will close that context menu).

 

Now you have added (or removed) tags as you desire, and added them to the mod description so they will be used everytime you load that mod.

 

Note that if you edit the mod "Description" field when you create the mod to include that same "{{BASH:<tag>,<tag>}}" syntax, WB/WF will automatically recognize those tags (and LOOT will as well, I think).

 

-Dubious-

Edited March 28, 2017 by dubiousintent

[AJStoner]

Thank you so much for everything, dubiousintent. You have been very generous and patient. ;)

[irswat]

this should be pinned. this is one of the most useful discussions on the topic I've seen. And I was just wondering this very question! thanks!

p.s. the auto wrye bash tag script does apply the tags if you have the latest version from github.

Edited March 28, 2017 by irswat