How do we deal with the navmesh bug?

[zenkmander]

If ESPs have broken navmeshes that bug out NPC pathing after loading 2 different cells, how do we make our own NPC-compatible areas? The solution so far is to convert the ESP to ESM, but the problem with that is that you can't delete vanilla objects from the game (rock here, bush there, etc), since the Skyrim.esm will 'overwrite' your mod ESM and reload those objects in their default positions. So lets say I want to add a building to Riverwood and make it compatible with AI pathing. With the navmesh bug the NPCs will glitch out with the new or possibly even edited navmeshes inside or outside the building, but with the ESM fix the terrain changes and deleted objects that were done would become undone by the Skyrim.esm, as if the Skyrim.esm had load order priority.

 

So, is it our only option to make our new buildings/dungeons 'fit' with the current landscape/object design that Bethesda has by default? This is a huge pain due simply to clipping issues (it's hard to make a building level on an incline, etc). Please share your thoughts and workarounds for this.

[zenkmander]

Bumping. Any ideas?

[David Brasher]

I have not witnessed this problem. I have been working with NavMeshes in exterior cells. Is this a very widespread problem? Has anyone else reported having it?

 

Please define the problem. What is it that happens? In what way do your NPCs glitch out?

 

In Oblivion modding, you never deleted vanilla objects because you would end up with a UDR in Wrye Bash and mobs would come with torches and pitchforks. (UDRs were reported to be a cause of CTDs.) So the procedure was that you would move unwanted objects like trees and rocks underground or under the floor of an interior cell. Alternately, you would set them to initially disabled.

 

In Oblivion modding, you would never have one .esm edit content in the Tamriel worldspace in Oblivion.esm. This was a recipe for disaster. The ground might disappear and all the actors and loose objects would fall into the void.

 

The file type that is designed to edit an .esm is an .esp.

[zenkmander]

The bug is illustrated in this video:

 

The NPCs glitch out in that their pathing breaks with ESP-based user-made navmeshing. The proposed solution is to convert the ESP to ESM, which would seem okay if you move the vanilla objects underground and so on, but any landscape editing you may have done will revert to vanilla when running an ESM mod, almost like the Skyrim.esm is further down on the load order and is overwriting your changes. This is in my experience at least, I may not be editing the landscape properly though; I just flatten small areas of terrain so new buildings don't have clipping issues.

[David Brasher]

People say you are not supposed to do it, and it would probably play hob with official Skyrim updates and with mods, but what if you were to edit Skyrim.esm and put all your new content into the master file itself? (You would want to be sure you had a convenient backup of the original .esm, and you would have to think about legalities before sharing your mod with anyone, because it might be considered to be piracy. But you can make any modifications you want for personal use only.)

[Korodic]

this is... -.- upsetting. I've never actually noticed it enough to think much of it. But I definitely have seen it happen. With my patrols in my HQ of my old mod. I thought I screwed up AI. I was wrong.

[zenkmander]

Like I said, converting your mod to ESM should fix it, and this is a great solution, but only as long as you don't edit landscape outside. You might be okay if you move exterior vanilla objects down so they're not visible in game without actually deleting them (I haven't tested this myself), but from what I've seen editing the landscape (flattening an area to put a building on, for example) seems to revert when running the mod as an ESM.

[Korodic]

welllll I did kinda edit a tiny bit of landscape. But I guess I could get passed it >.>

EDIT: If I make a new worldspace that won't effect that landscape right?

[zenkmander]

It shouldn't, but from what I've heard the tools needed to make a new worldspace are buggy as well. :/

[Dovonob]

Ah gutted my original post got lost in the backup restore.

 

Rather than writing it all again I'll be brief.

 

I've just started using the CK, I've not had any previous experience with this particuliar tool kit and never really delved that deeply into the workings of a navmesh, so my question is probably pretty dumb so feel free to chastise me however you fancy :smile:

 

In regards to this very worrying navmesh bug that seems to be a complete mod breaker and put a spanner in everything I had planned, is it not possible to run a papyrus script or console command when entering a new area to reset the navmesh?

 

I'm sure the problem is a bit more complicated that this otherwise someone with far greater in intelligence than me would have thought of this already, it's just that I noticed from watching the video that the Mancunian guy that everyone seems to hate put up, he mentions that quitting out of the game and launching it again fixes the problem. Admittingly that's only a temporary fix as you move two cells away and the problem re-occurs but if you could reset the navmesh everytime you entered an area that would be some form of less tedious workaround than what people currently have to do from what I have read.

 

Like I said I havn't even started using the toolkit yet so I ask this question with no real thinking behind it so apologies if it's a ridiculous uneducated question.

 

Has anyone heard anything back from Bethseda regarding this killer bug? I really wanted to make some new interior and exterior landscapes but it seems a bit pointless to sit and learn the toolkit if everything I wanted to do isn't going to work I might aswell carry on with UDK or the Cryengine.