Eferas Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 Hi everyone, since I need to reduce my plugins, I started merging some of them. I only merged the small ones and only among the multiple plugins of the same mod. I used the merging script for NVedit and everything is working fine, except for when I do the bashed patch. The problem is with this mod: http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/34950/? I merged two of this mod plugins, the main file and its dead money patch. The problem is that now the new plugin doesn't get imported inside the bashed patch, it doesn't even appear in the menu when I get to choose what import and what not (expecially the import names tab). How do I make my plugin "margebale"? Expecially when it comes to the import names tab.
dubiousintent Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 "Patches" designed to get two different plugins to work together are called "compatibility patches" (in that instance "Inventory Sorters" and "Dead Money"). They should not be "merged" into "merge plugin" files because they (by definition) contain "record level conflicts", and other plugins may also conflict with those records. The "bashed patch" will resolve those. It will also determine if the result allows either or both of the plugins being made "compatible" can be fully merged in order to be deactivated. You generally should not attempt to force that issue. (There are easier things to spend your time on.) Please see the "Terminology" section of the wiki "Merged Plugin Guidelines for Personal Use" article. As for getting the names imported into the bashed patch, there is a FNVEdit/xEdit script that will determine which tags apply to a script and give you the option to add those tags to the plugin "file header". Please see the wiki "Bash Tags and the Wrye Bash Patch" article for details. -Dubious-
Eferas Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 "Patches" designed to get two different plugins to work together are called "compatibility patches" (in that instance "Inventory Sorters" and "Dead Money"). They should not be "merged" into "merge plugin" files because they (by definition) contain "record level conflicts", and other plugins may also conflict with those records. The "bashed patch" will resolve those. It will also determine if the result allows either or both of the plugins being made "compatible" can be fully merged in order to be deactivated. You generally should not attempt to force that issue. (There are easier things to spend your time on.) Please see the "Terminology" section of the wiki "Merged Plugin Guidelines for Personal Use" article. As for getting the names imported into the bashed patch, there is a FNVEdit/xEdit script that will determine which tags apply to a script and give you the option to add those tags to the plugin "file header". Please see the wiki "Bash Tags and the Wrye Bash Patch" article for details. -Dubious-Thanks for the reply! I will check the tags wiki, thank you. :) About the merging, the two esp didn't have conflicts because the first esp modified vanilla record while the second one dead money records. All I did was just make one out of two. It should work fine, I guess.
dubiousintent Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) This is a common misunderstanding of a tricky subject, so I'm going to belabor the point. Mator (author of both the xEdit script and the Standalone version of "Merge Plugins") has pointed out that neither version performs "record level conflict resolution". For that you need to use "Mator Smash" or "Wrye Bash/Flash". This point is often missed until it turns around to bite you. The "Inventory Sorter Dead Money" file is described as a "compatibility patch". This means it alters records touched by both "Dead Money" and "Inventory Sorter" (in the FalloutNV "master") so they will work together. The DLCs all alter FalloutNV.esm records. They are not completely "independent"; they have it as a "master". Which in turn means record level resolution is necessary when a plugin modifies them so the "rule of one" does not come into play. Without the conflict resolution, when the "Inventory Sorter Dead Money" patch file loaded after the "Inventory Sorter", it would "win" and all the other record changes made by IS would be "lost" (as if IS was never installed) and only those for DM will be made. What you can do is use Mator Smash to create a "smashed patch" of "Inventory Sorter" and the "Inventory Sorter Dead Money" file to resolve those record conflicts. But it doesn't really gain you anything in terms of freeing up a slot, so why bother? (If you were combining the "smashed" result into another merge plugin file with other plugins, that would be another matter. That works to save at least one slot.) -Dubious- Edited June 7, 2017 by dubiousintent
Eferas Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 So... Oh crap. Lots of work for nothing.One thing I did was merging 6 indipendent faction overhauls, they didn't overwrite the same records but different ones and were indipendend of each other, however they all have the same master. I suppose that's bad too, right? In game it looked to work perfectly.. Thank you very much for the explanation btw. Also, let's say I load two different plugins in xEDIT and start copy as overwrite each part of one into the other, them save, reload and remove the first mod as a master... Would the new plugin work? Would this way save me a slot?
dubiousintent Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) Actually, with a single master in common, those "faction" mods are perfect for merging. They are "in effect" all "patches" to the parent plugin: the simplest merges. They are separate files to permit you to pick and choose. Having made your choices, merging them together is simply efficient and slot saving. They are what I categorized as the simplest type of merge in "Merged Plugin Guidelines for Personal Use". Merging optional patches to a parent plugin is recommended as best done by hand using the "Merge Up" technique described in that article because you can see the resulting effect immediately and "merging up" preserves the record FormID numbering of the parent. You have to examine your result merge file in xEdit to determine if everything is correct. Which is tedious (because you need to be able to determine something is missing by knowing a record was supposed to be there), but most easily done when all the involved plugins are loaded in that edit session. As for your "two different plugins" example: see the wiki "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article. It deals with subject of multiple "master files". Note the warning that the very last stage is still untested, but everything you are concerned with is before that and has been tested. Did I mention this is a tricky subject? Expect to need to re-read parts of the "Guidelines" article several times. But it does become easier with practice. -Dubious- Edited June 7, 2017 by dubiousintent
Eferas Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 So, my goal is to make 3 merges, let's see if I've got it right: 1) 9 different and indipendent faction overhauls merged into 1 plugin. They all have the same master, fallout.esm, except one that has also the dead money.esm. I can do it with the script merge plugins, If I understand it correctly. I will save 8 slots this way.2) I want to merge these 3 plugins from this mod ( http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/49677/? ) 2 of them are patches of the first one so I need to use Mator Smash. I will save 2 slots. 3) I want to merge these 2 plugins from this mod ( http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/37090/? ) however this time the second plugins isn't exactly a patch, it's more an extention, because it's indipendent since it doesn't use the first plugin as a master and doesn't edit the same records. The first plugins has the falloutnv.esm as a master while the second one the falloutnv.esm and the oldworldblues.esm as masters. I can merge these two with the script merge, right? Also, one thing I noticed, when I used the script merger for xEDIT, it creates form id list in both the original plugins and the merged plugins, which weren't there in the first place. Why and should I worry about it?
dubiousintent Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) It's important to note the difference between "merge up" and "merge down", and choose which applies in each scenario. There is no simple "cut-and-dried" formula, though there are those mod creators who say you should only use "merge up". (I take the more practical approach that as long as you are aware of and always bear in mind the differences and reasons behind both approaches you can choose between them in a given situation. But that is a BIG caveat.)"Merge up" merges later loading plugins into the first "parent master" (first loading plugin of a related series of plugins you intend to merge), generally by adding the other masters and records of later loading merged plugins to those of the "parent master". The "parent master" is still recognizable by other plugins and has the same record FormIDs as originally, with the merged records added. This should be the choice when you are merging files that all modify the same "parent master". Remember: merging does not resolve record level conflicts, but you can choose which record "wins" when manually merging up."Merge down" in effect creates a completely new plugin file combining all the selected plugins. It determines what "masters" it needs (which must remain separate and in the "load order"), but other plugins would not recognize the new plugin name as a master, nor that it incorporates any of the original "masters" that might have been eliminated by it (as you will likely have removed the need for their ESP files). Again: it does not resolve record level conflicts, and should only be used where none exist.When speaking of "master files", it's important to distinguish between "official" masters and "parent masters". The "FalloutNV.esm" file, along with the DLC ESM files are "official masters". All mods "touch" one or more of those "masters", which means the "rule of one" (last plugin to touch them "wins") always comes into play and you have to engage in "record level conflict resolution" to overcome that behavior. Note a "master" is not only an ESM file. Any other ESP a plugin requires be loaded as well is also a "master". This is how you usually distinguish a "compatibility patch": it requires more than one ESP as "masters". (I'm not yet sure that is the only criteria.)However, when the "parent plugin" is an ESP which touches only a specific set of "official masters" ("FalloutNV.esm", and optionally DLCs), then you can merge the parent's related "optional" plugins into the "parent plugin" using "Mator Smash" to reconcile ("smash") any record conflicts. Note this does not apply to "compatibility patches" which are designed to get the "parent plugin" to work with another plugin; EXCEPT a "compatibility patch" for that particular "parent plugin" only and a DLC "official master" can be "smashed" into the "parent plugin" as well, in effect making that DLC into a "official master" for the "parent plugin" as well where it hadn't been before. (See the "4.3 Example Stage-1 (ModA Parent Plugin 1: 'WeaponModsExpanded.esp')" section in the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article for an example of this.)Scenario 1: (9 different and independent faction overhauls.) Yes, they can be merged as long as none of the faction overhauls touch the same records. If they do, the "rule of one" comes into play and you need to "smash" them. The best way to determine this is to load them all into xEdit and see if more than one plugin is shown in the right-pane "View" tab of any record. There are some screenshots of this in the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article.If any touch the same records, then you need to resolve their conflicts. This can be for just those individual plugins that conflict by either "smashing" them or using xEdit to "merge up". Then the resulting single file (which has no conflicts) can be merged with the other "non-conflicting" plugins as described next.If there are no record conflicts, then you can merge them all with Mator's "Standalone Merge Plugins" (SMP) or by "merging up" with xEdit. (SMP has capabilities not possible with the script, and Mator is only working on enhancing it these days.) Either way will turn those 9 independent files into a new, single plugin.Scenario 2: (Merging optional file patches to the mod "Light Up and Smoke Those Cigarettes (and Cigars and Cigarillos)", aka "Light Up" hereafter). It depends upon the optional files purpose. See the discussion about "master files" above.In the specific case of the patches for "Light Up", you need to examine the "file headers" of each in xEdit to determine what each has as "master files". See the "Candidate Selection Strategy" section of the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article where this is discussed in depth. (Do let me know of any questions you have concerning this section. It is a murky subject and they will help me clarify it.) Bear in mind the "time versus effort" ratio. If things look too complicated to easily resolve, better to leave the plugin out of your "merging" plans and deal with something simpler.Scenario 3: (Manual Reload). What "two plugins"? I see a single v2_1 file (the current version), and two older versions (v1_4_5, and v2_0_2). None of them should be merged that I can see. Perhaps you linked the wrong mod?Re:Also, one thing I noticed, when I used the script merger for xEDIT, it creates form id list in both the original plugins and the merged plugins, which weren't there in the first place. Why and should I worry about it? Don't know, but I wouldn't worry about it. Most likely that list is a side effect of what xEdit needed to do anyway and it's being included to save processing time in the future. Additional information is usually valuable, and it's only a small increase in file size. -Dubious- Edited June 7, 2017 by dubiousintent
Eferas Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 It's important to note the difference between "merge up" and "merge down", and choose which applies in each scenario. There is no simple "cut-and-dried" formula, though there are those mod creators who say you should only use "merge up". (I take the more practical approach that as long as you are aware of and always bear in mind the differences and reasons behind both approaches you can choose between them in a given situation. But that is a BIG caveat.) "Merge up" merges later loading plugins into the first "parent master" (first loading plugin of a related series of plugins you intend to merge), generally by adding the other masters and records of later loading merged plugins to those of the "parent master". The "parent master" is still recognizable by other plugins and has the same record FormIDs as originally, with the merged records added. This should be the choice when you are merging files that all modify the same "parent master". Remember: merging does not resolve record level conflicts, but you can choose which record "wins" when manually merging up. "Merge down" in effect creates a completely new plugin file combining all the selected plugins. It determines what "masters" it needs (which must remain separate and in the "load order"), but other plugins would not recognize the new plugin name as a master, nor that it incorporates any of the original "masters" that might have been eliminated by it (as you will likely have removed the need for their ESP files). Again: it does not resolve record level conflicts, and should only be used where none exist. When speaking of "master files", it's important to distinguish between "official" masters and "parent masters". The "FalloutNV.esm" file, along with the DLC ESM files are "official masters". All mods "touch" one or more of those "masters", which means the "rule of one" (last plugin to touch them "wins") always comes into play and you have to engage in "record level conflict resolution" to overcome that behavior. Note a "master" is not only an ESM file. Any other ESP a plugin requires be loaded as well is also a "master". This is how you usually distinguish a "compatibility patch": it requires more than one ESP as "masters". (I'm not yet sure that is the only criteria.) However, when the "parent plugin" is an ESP which touches only a specific set of "official masters" ("FalloutNV.esm", and optionally DLCs), then you can merge the parent's related "optional" plugins into the "parent plugin" using "Mator Smash" to reconcile ("smash") any record conflicts. Note this does not apply to "compatibility patches" which are designed to get the "parent plugin" to work with another plugin; EXCEPT a "compatibility patch" for that particular "parent plugin" only and a DLC "official master" can be "smashed" into the "parent plugin" as well, in effect making that DLC into a "official master" for the "parent plugin" as well where it hadn't been before. (See the "4.3 Example Stage-1 (ModA Parent Plugin 1: 'WeaponModsExpanded.esp')" section in the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article for an example of this.) Scenario 1: (9 different and independent faction overhauls.) Yes, they can be merged as long as none of the faction overhauls touch the same records. If they do, the "rule of one" comes into play and you need to "smash" them. The best way to determine this is to load them all into xEdit and see if more than one plugin is shown in the right-pane "View" tab of any record. There are some screenshots of this in the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article. If any touch the same records, then you need to resolve their conflicts. This can be for just those individual plugins that conflict by either "smashing" them or using xEdit to "merge up". Then the resulting single file (which has no conflicts) can be merged with the other "non-conflicting" plugins as described next. If there are no record conflicts, then you can merge them all with Mator's "Standalone Merge Plugins" (SMP) or by "merging up" with xEdit. (SMP has capabilities not possible with the script, and Mator is only working on enhancing it these days.) Either way will turn those 9 independent files into a new, single plugin. Scenario 2: (Merging optional file patches to the mod "Light Up and Smoke Those Cigarettes (and Cigars and Cigarillos)", aka "Light Up" hereafter). It depends upon the optional files purpose. See the discussion about "master files" above. In the specific case of the patches for "Light Up", you need to examine the "file headers" of each in xEdit to determine what each has as "master files". See the "Candidate Selection Strategy" section of the "Multiple file Merge-Up Procedure" article where this is discussed in depth. (Do let me know of any questions you have concerning this section. It is a murky subject and they will help me clarify it.) Bear in mind the "time versus effort" ratio. If things look too complicated to easily resolve, better to leave the plugin out of your "merging" plans and deal with something simpler. Scenario 3: (Manual Reload). What "two plugins"? I see a single v2_1 file (the current version), and two older versions (v1_4_5, and v2_0_2). None of them should be merged that I can see. Perhaps you linked the wrong mod? Re:Also, one thing I noticed, when I used the script merger for xEDIT, it creates form id list in both the original plugins and the merged plugins, which weren't there in the first place. Why and should I worry about it? Don't know, but I wouldn't worry about it. Most likely that list is a side effect of what xEdit needed to do anyway and it's being included to save processing time in the future. Additional information is usually valuable, and it's only a small increase in file size. -Dubious- Thank you for the clear explanation, I'm taking you a lot of time and I'm sorry abou that. About the Scenario 3, the two plugins are inside the archive, the one single main file. :)
dubiousintent Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 I don't mind the time spent. Your questions tell what I have failed to explain sufficiently clearly in my articles, which helps me refine them. That's why I write wiki articles. I can go into more detail without "wall of text" postings (well, even more massive walls anyway), and refine them over time. After that I can just point people to the relevant article instead of a too short (and usually misleading) "quick reply". I downloaded "Manual Reloading" (MR) and now I see what you mean. Examining both loaded into xEdit, it becomes obvious that the "OWB" patch only modifies two OWB scripts and does not have any direct connection to MR (which is not even a "master" for it). And everything in MR are "new and unique" additions (white backgrounds) to "FalloutNV.esm". So, yes you can merge them, using either method ("merge up" or SMP), which will mean the resulting file will have two "masters": "FalloutNV.esm" and "Old World Blues.esm". I recommend merging OWB patch up into MR. Few records, simple to implement, and good practice. -Dubious-
Recommended Posts