Race and Attitude

[Adipose]

I wonder which is more racially biased, Thalmor or Stormcloaks?

[Di0nysys]

Edited September 27, 2017 by Di0nysys

[RGMage2]

I saw the Nords more as nationalists than racists. It was their land, their culture, and they didn't want to be ruled by others. They wanted to be masters in their own home, which is really a fairly normal human thing. If they were racists as well, I don't think it was any more overt than the other racist races.

 

The Thalmor were supremacists, both racially and culturally. They were also Imperialists, just different Imperialists than the ones from the Imperial city. They were expansionist Imperialists building their Empire at the expense of others, and basing their right to do so on their racial and cultural superiority.

[TeofaTsavo]

Gotta love the Stormcloak apologists. Nah, they are just a civic improvement club.

 

Nords wiped out one entire Mer culture and have a general antipathy to Elves, who they have been at war with for generations in one form or another.

 

Ultra-Nationalistic Nords pounding a religious and race hate drum to further antagonism towards the elves, and by proxy those they consider to be Elf puppets, The Empire. Ulfric proved how "tolerant" he was at Markarth as well. There is plenty of evidence in game. "Skyrim is For the Nords" is hardly a rally cry for "inclusiveness". "Skyrim is for the Stormcloak" would be a more honest statement, as many Nord would not be welcomed in Ulfrics regime.

 

They take it far enough ingame to happily murder a Talos-worshipping Nord High King and wage war against fellow Nords who don't live up to their chosen agenda. By proving that they have no tolerance even for Nords who don't fall into line, how will Ulfrics regime treat those other races who aren't Nord at all? A skyrim wide Markarth "purification"? Alvor hung from the rafters of his blacksmith shop for "collaborating"? Battle-Born heads on pikes decorating Whiterun after they were stripped of all possessions? Rifton "cleansed"? The eventual bloodbath of retribution in Solitude would be horrific.

 

You can't put on enough spin to change what the Stormcloaks are. Their very name reflects a personality cult devotion to the ambition and arrogance of one Ulfric Stormcloak. His actions and dialog ingame are more about enhancing and inflating his own Reputation and Ego than anything else. He's as unstable as Potema with far, far less talent.

 

Even the Thalmor apparently decided he was stupid enough to further their goal of destabilizing the Empire and didn't take him out when they could. They were more concerned about a few Blades remnants than they were about Ulfric.

 

The Thalmor are worse because they are larger, more organized, and aren't led by a Cretin. Neither faction has a moral superiority. Both are reactionary, xenophobic, fanatical ideologies...the main difference being that the 3rd Era Thalmor actually managed to take control and build an Empire before going on their crusade.

 

I know... but but but none of that happens if Ulfric wins. Yet.. is my only response. He'll never win in my games, so it matters not. The game presents me with more than enough evidence to prevent that from ever happening.

Edited July 30, 2017 by TeofaTsavo

[Skagens]

Gotta love the Stormcloak apologists. Nah, they are just a civic improvement club.

 

Nords wiped out one entire Mer culture and have a general antipathy to Elves, who they have been at war with for generations in one form or another.

 

What you state is true, the nords drove the snow elves to near extinction, which gave them no other choice but to accept the dwarves bargain, driving them underground. However, you're forgetting that the nords weren't the ones who started the war, the snow elves did, with an event known as the Night of Tears.

 

Excerpt from Uesp.net:

Why the elves of Skyrim instigated the Night of Tears is disputed; attributed motives include fear, religious and military provocations, territorial disputes, and a desire to possess an ancient power the humans had uncovered (the Eye of Magnus). Regardless, the elves attacked the human capital of Saarthal one night and razed it to the ground. The only known survivors were the Atmoran-born ruler Ysgramor, as well as his two sons Yngol and Ylgar. It's unknown when the conflict began; the earliest human settlements in Tamriel date back to ME800-1000, and sources suggest the relationship remained relatively harmonious for some time.

 

The snow elves attacked without warning, and razed the city to the ground, slaughtering almost everyone. It was because of this Ysgramor came back to wage war against the snow elves. A war one could argue the snow elves started, and also lost. None of the parties were blameless but Ysgramors actions weren't exactly unjustified.

 

They take it far enough ingame to happily murder a Talos-worshipping Nord High King and wage war against fellow Nords who don't live up to their chosen agenda. By proving that they have no tolerance even for Nords who don't fall into line, how will Ulfrics regime treat those other races who aren't Nord at all? A skyrim wide Markarth "purification"? Alvor hung from the rafters of his blacksmith shop for "collaborating"? Battle-Born heads on pikes decorating Whiterun after they were stripped of all possessions? Rifton "cleansed"? The eventual bloodbath of retribution in Solitude would be horrific.

 

Murder is a strong word. Ulfric challenged the High King to a duel, one which Torygg accepted. Ulfric most assuredly knew he would win, but I wouldn't call it murder. Torygg accepted the duel, and lost. Also, you seem to forget that there are elves who live in Windhelm. If Ulfric is the homicidal racist you make him out to be, then wouldn't he kill every elf living in Windhelm? I get the feeling you somehow think the Stormcloaks are the same as Nazis, which is incorrect. Ulfric doesn't fight against "nords who disagree with him", he fights against an Empire who in his eyes, has failed him and every other true nord in Skyrim. Ulfric is not evil, so why you think he would go on a murdering rampage for retribution is beyond me.

It doesn't sound like you understand the Stormcloaks or Ulfric at all.

 

You can't put on enough spin to change what the Stormcloaks are. Their very name reflects a personality cult devotion to the ambition and arrogance of one Ulfric Stormcloak. His actions and dialog ingame are more about enhancing and inflating his own Reputation and Ego than anything else. He's as unstable as Potema with far, far less talent.

 

I can't tell if you're serious or if it was an attempt at a joke. Potema was a known homicidal, power-hungry maniac with no regards for the lives of her own subjects or anyone else. She didn't fight for a cause, all she craved was power.

 

The quote "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." doesn't sound like hate-speech to me.

 

The Thalmor are worse because they are larger, more organized, and aren't led by a Cretin. Neither faction has a moral superiority. Both are reactionary, xenophobic, fanatical ideologies...the main difference being that the 3rd Era Thalmor actually managed to take control and build an Empire before going on their crusade.

 

The Thalmor are worse because they see the races of man as inferior to mer. In their eyes, they seek to pacify and "purify" all of Tamriel, to bring about a new era in which Mer rule over Man. If you can't tell the difference between nationalism and racism there is not much point arguing.

[TeofaTsavo]

haaahhaaaa. Once you pull out godwins, I'm done. Also I don't consider Ulfric as an unbiased source on Ulfric. That's just silly.

 

What I envisioned is based on what he did at Markarth and other evidence, not his self aggrandizing bit of rhetoric.

 

BTW, Ultra Nationalism often carries a hefty load of racism, ethno-centrism, and xenophobia along with it.

 

I laughed at bit at your use of "True Nords". By whose definition, eh? Ulfrics? lol. Yeah, I guess you could shrug off him killing Nord as "they aren't True Nords"

 

I am no "True Nord" . A "True Nord", Jarl Balgruuf the Greater, had this to say about the man " Do you think Ulfric really cares about Skyrim's independence, or the welfare of its people? I promise you, he doesn't. He's nothing more than a barbarian renegade, whose lust for power has cost the lives of countless innocents."

 

I chose to listen to the honorable man.

 

 

"Skips merrily out of the Palace of the Kings, swinging Ulfrics head like an ugly flower Basket"

Edited July 31, 2017 by TeofaTsavo

[Skagens]

haaahhaaaa. Once you pull out godwins, I'm done. Also I don't consider Ulfric as an unbiased source on Ulfric. That's just silly.

 

What I envisioned is based on what he did at Markarth, not his self aggrandizing bit of rhetoric.

 

BTW, Ultra Nationalism often carries a hefty load of racism, ethno-centrism, and xenophobia along with it.

 

I laughed at bit at your use of "True Nords". By whose definition, eh? Ulfrics? lol. Yeah, I guess you could shrug off him killing Nord as "they aren't True Nords"

 

I am no "True Nord"

 

"Skips merrily out of the Palace of the Kings, swinging Ulfrics head like an ugly flower Basket"

 

Ulfric doesn't fight against "nords who disagree with him", he fights against an Empire who in his eyes, has failed him and every other true nord in Skyrim.

It was quite obvious that when I said "true nord", it was by Ulfrics definition. He is fighting against the Empire, not nords who are against him. Do the nords on the side of the Empire have to justify killing their kin?

 

Excerpt from the Elder Scrolls Wiki:

Reports vary, but The Bear of Markarth claims every official who worked for the Reachmen was killed, even after they had surrendered, native women were tortured to give up names of Reachmen fighters who had fled the city and anyone who lived in the city, Reachmen and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. Ulfric supposedly even ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him.

It is difficult to tell how accurate these reports are, as while the dialogue of Braig and many of the other Forsworn imprisoned in Cidhna Mine shows that there were many false and unjust imprisonments, the number of these are unknown. Although the Empire accuses Ulfric of being responsible for the heinous atrocities, Braig's story seems to confirm that it was Jarl Hrolfdir who carried out the unjust incarcerations and executions on those accused of colluding with the Forsworn.

 

There are no definitive and accurate reports that state Ulfric was to blame for what happened at Markarth. We already know the Empire likes to blame Ulfric for everything, so we can't trust their reports. Some reports suggest that it was actually Jarl Hrolfdir who carried out the slaughter and not Ulfric. Either way, what motive either of them had to justify those actions is beyond me. It might have been Ulfric and it might not have been, we just don't know.

 

This is also taken from the Wikia:

When the Imperial Legion arrived to restore the rule of law, Ulfric allegedly refused them entry into the city until they also agreed that free worship of Talos would be allowed. With supposed chaos running through the streets of Markarth and the reports of deaths rising every day, the Empire had no choice but to grant Ulfric and his men their worship, thus jeopardizing the peace agreement with the Aldmeri Dominion. Igmund and Cedran however, implies that the Empire promised Ulfric free Talos worship from the very beginning and simply hoped that the Dominion wouldn't find out about the free Talos worship. When they eventually did, they scapegoated Ulfric and his militia in order to avoid incrimination and to prevent a war.

 

If we are to trust this information, it would seem that Ulfric gave the Empire a demand which they agreed to. They made empty promises to Ulfric but when things went south, and the Aldmeri Dominion found out about the free worship of Talos, they broke their promise and made Ulfric the scapegoat in order to avoid the blame and the risk of starting another war. I don't fault the Empire for this, since another war would have been devastating, but Hrolfdir and Ulfric made a deal. The Empire and Ulfric made a deal. Everyone knew the worship of Talos was forbidden but the Empire and Jarl Hrolfdir accepted the deal anyway, knowing full well the risks involved.

 

EDIT: I'm not denying that there are racists and bigots within the Stormcloaks but you're saying all Stormcloaks are racist bigots. That's no different than saying all muslims are terrorists.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Skagens

[TeofaTsavo]

 

 

EDIT: I'm not denying that there are racists and bigots within the Stormcloaks but you're saying all Stormcloaks are racist bigots. That's no different than saying all muslims are terrorists.

 

 

Please note that I am not talking about an entire race, an entire culture or an entire religion as a whole, and never have. Stormcloaks are an Ultra Nationalist faction IMO. Whether you agree or not, it is a statement aimed at a specific group waging a war of rebellion and my comments are directed solely at them. In the same manner that comments directed at the Thalmor Organization do not include all Mer.

 

All fictional entities, I must add. As much as I despise the fictional character of Ulfric, I don't have an ounce of personal rancor towards a person who enjoys helping Ulfrics Rebel Alliance bring down the Evil Empire. It's a game and underdogs are beloved faction. Enjoy the option. It's not real.

 

Virtue signaling ... please.

Edited July 31, 2017 by TeofaTsavo

[Skagens]

 

 

 

EDIT: I'm not denying that there are racists and bigots within the Stormcloaks but you're saying all Stormcloaks are racist bigots. That's no different than saying all muslims are terrorists.

 

Can't resist the urge, I see.

 

I'm done.

 

 

I was making a valid comparison, there was no "urge" involved. But hey, good talk.

[Fkemman11]

The Thalmor are the more fanatical of the two imo. They are convinced they are superior to men in every way. That my friend, is brainwashing. I think Stormcloaks reserve most of their hatred for the Thalmor and any sympathizers, but tend to be grudgingly tolerant of other elves and people who aren't Nords. Remember that it is trait of High Elves in general to be highly intelligent, well educated and tend to act haughty and impatient, while Nords seem to be much more physical. uneducated and share a general distrust for all of the Elf races. This makes them natural enemies by my thinking. Its funny that the races of Tamriel can be typified rather easily when some argue that the very idea of racial distinction is racist in and of itself. For instance, is it wrong to assume that Khajiit tend to be more stealthy and are good traders? No one questions these things in a game where the lore of the land is constructed around these concepts. At least Beth understands and includes such racial diversity in their games.

 

There is one more piece of evidence floating out there in the game world to make me question Ulfric's true purpose. The Aldmeri did not eliminate Ulfric when they had a chance for a reason. He is listed as a possible asset.