Idle thought: What might the world be like in CHINA?

[drach]

 

and since in fallout world US was the loosing side in the war, they probably acted first and nuked most of the china in alphastrike giving reds

not much of a retaliation option, hence most of US is still standing being only slightly bombarded

 

USA was winning and managed to surround Bejing

 

my bad then, sorry

 

Yes, and they also raped bibles, ate babies, and wiped their asses with the american flag.

 

You probably shouldn't take 'murican cold war propaganda at face value, just saying...

and you shouldn't assume everyone is an american or euroignorant

 

I lived through part of it, not the hardcore part (too young), but I still "managed" to experience dawn of peaceful soviet liberation

with tanks on the streets and other fun and games where people die or get crippled because they object to being treated worse then a cattle

just saying

 

 

Just a side note: The theory of Communism works just fine. It is, after all, essentially just "Share and share alike" mixed with "All for one and one for all!"

even in theory one must be colossal moron to call it fine, there is nothing remotely fine about it, it's an ideology that defies all logic

 

back to the matter at hand

do you know why red army actually fights to the death for their oppressors aka government? not because they're all indoctrinated, they're all batshit scared, if not for themselves it's for their family,

would you obey if you were told to do as you are told to or your wife and 8 year old daughter shall die after days of rape and torture?

that's communism in reality, you theorist

[CaptainPatch]

 

Just a side note: The theory of Communism works just fine. It is, after all, essentially just "Share and share alike" mixed with "All for one and one for all!"

even in theory one must be colossal moron to call it fine, there is nothing remotely fine about it, it's an ideology that defies all logic

 

back to the matter at hand

do you know why red army actually fights to the death for their oppressors aka government? not because they're all indoctrinated, they're all batshit scared, if not for themselves it's for their family,

would you obey if you were told to do as you are told to or your wife and 8 year old daughter shall die after days of rape and torture?

that's communism in reality, you theorist

 

As I said, except for the corruption of the leaders. Most governments are corrupt, to some extent. It's hard to avoid, since "Absolute Power corrupts absolutely". Further back in History, most monarchs kept their Head Torturer busy 24/7. Does that indicate that ALL monarchies are/were deplorable and inhumane? Even many democracies were beset with perverted and corrupt leaders. Should Democracy therefore be discarded?

 

Authoritarian leadership comes in about as many "flavors" as there are people. Some good, some bad. Some even significantly worse than bad. You have cases like Pol Pot in Cambodia with mass graves all over. Idi Amin in Uganda doing much the same earlier (and probably inspiring Pol Pot). Hitler was inspired and encouraged to conduct the Holocaust because he saw what the Ottoman Turks got away with when they conducted the Armenian Genocide during WW1. On the other hand, you had Franco in Spain and in post-Spanish Civil War he managed to unify and improve Spain dramatically... despite the fact that he was a dictator. The same might be said for Tito in Yugoslavia -- and he was managing to unify ethnic groups that absolutely LOATHED each other (to the other people's deaths if they could get away with it).

 

It just happened that in the Communist USSR and its satellites the Top Dogs were mostly absolute sociopaths that deemed other people's lives to be utterly expendable and unworthy of any humane treatment. Balancing them was Communist Yugoslavia (previously mentioned) and Communist Cuba. Despite whatever abuses happened when Cuba transited to Communism, Castro's rule was nowhere near as inhumane and decadent as the Baptista "democracy" that preceded it. Were there instances of inhumanity to found there? Undoubtedly. But show me the History of ANY nation where there was NEVER something just as bad happening at some time or another. Even in the ever-so-wonderful democratic USA, the leaders over more than a century deliberated and with malice aforethought worked to exterminate EVERY Native American tribe... and nearly succeeded.

 

Governments, no matter the political theory being applied, are operated by human beings.... and human beings are susceptible to the lure of Greed and Power. And EVERY government can only be as good as the people running, no matter what political theory is applied.

 

But then, that's just one moron's opinion.

 

As for citizens in abject fear of those that rule them, check out this video at about 2:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgRyLz47liM

Edited August 17, 2017 by CaptainPatch

[drach]

nice argument, generalized, hard to debate but when you think about it, not really applicable, proving every system is as good it's leaders is a sidetrack nothing more

you seem to like theory, have you ever read anything by Lenin? try

try Mao Zedong biography

those, as you called them, communist Top Dogs became genocidal sociopaths, because they followed specific doctrine not the other way around

[CaptainPatch]

If you are going to suggest that inhumanity is inherent to Communism, why not go all the way back to Karl Marx who inspired 20th century Communism? What in The Communist Manifesto mandates that the Communist leaders MUST be inhumane towards everyone that wasn't a Communist leader?

 

The kinds of abuses that you described earlier have likewise occurred under other political systems as well. Yet, I don't hear you railing against them as well. I get the impression that you lived much of your life pressing up against Communism and have therefore equated all the evils you witnessed as being endemic to Communism itself. It's a very short step to arrive at Communism = EVIL, period. But a broader study of political systems across time and the world will reveal that those evils can be found wherever there are evil people in charge. Sometimes it doesn't even require them to be dyed-in-the-wool evil. (Just look at assassination by drone and warrantless incarcerations and renditions in the name of the War on Terror.)

 

All it takes for evil deeds to be done is people in the right place at the right time willing to commit those Evil deeds... and Good people failing to do anything to halt the evil deeds. The context wherein those deeds occur can be most anything.

[drach]

right, and yet somehow there is no single example of non-homicidal/sociopathic communist leader, from hour 0 to present day, coincidence?

while in other systems there is variety where you could easily apply your "as bad as person" logic

 

on second hand I'm getting impression that you base your views on some educated guess rather then study I may be biased against communism (hell I'am) but that does not alter

historical facts, nor written ideology and doctrines you seem to be not very familiar with

[CaptainPatch]

right, and yet somehow there is no single example of non-homicidal/sociopathic communist leader, from hour 0 to present day, coincidence?

??? That a ridiculous assertion. Can YOU show any documentation (other than other broad-sweeping assertions made by others ) to support such a claim?

 

EVERY time there has been a major ideological shift, there has been violent excesses. It can't be avoided. Those in power previously resist the change with everything they have, and the incoming Power does what is necessary to force its way in. HOWEVER, after the new Powers That Be have settled in and are confident that the recidivists can't reverse the situation to go back to The Way Things Were, then is when you can clearly see the true character of the new Powers That Be. This has been true after the American Revolution -- are you familiar with the Whiskey Rebellion and all the Troubles the new democracy was experiencing? -- and the French Revolution (which returned to a monarchy because of the excesses of the Republicans) and the Russian Revolution (which was followed by the Russian Civil War). As alternate examples, look at Tito in Yugoslavia, Castro in Cuba, and, yes, even the Red Chinese. [The Cultural Revolution was NOT directed towards The People in general, but rather represented a power struggle between the various Communist leaders. Looking at the Cultural Revolution objectively, it was Mao flexing his muscles to assure that the then-Powers That Be did NOT follow the example of Stalin. And as a result The People got a MUCH better deal than the Russian people did under Stalin. The Changes that occurred then has directly led to the China of Today being one of THE most powerful Economies in the world Today. (Red China is, in fact, the largest holder of US debt outside of the US. And in case you didn't notice, the US government exists because it is allowed to continue despite being $19 trillion in debt... with that debt increasing by hundreds of billions annually, with no end in sight where the trend reverses.)]

[drach]

EVERY time there has been a major ideological shift, there has been violent excesses. It can't be avoided.

you're calling circa 60 years of continuous manslaughter an excess and shift

 

look at Tito in Yugoslavia, Castro in Cuba

ok, let's look:

 

Castro's death toll ~140,000

Tito's death toll 597,323 (which is over 50% of population killed in mass executions and labor camps)

 

real saints...

 

I don't see the point in further discussion either you are communist yourself (or simply ignorant) and thus justify this criminal system same way Lenin justified his atrocities

just to compare things, during holocaust infamous Hitler's death camps swallowed fraction of victims in comparison to communist rule