tha bad thing in every faction

[dukethepcdr]

Is there a faction in the game that does not have a major downside? I joined the Companions in one gamesave only to find out that they want to turn me into a werewolf. I don't want to RP a werewolf, so I deleted that gamesave. In another gamesave, I tried to talk Aventus Arentino out of having the orphanage matron killed, but there wasn't any option to do that, only to kill the matron. So I did and wound up ticking off the Dark Brotherhood and having to kill some random tied up NPC in order to escape without having to join them or die. So I deleted that gamesave. I don't want to RP a villain any more than I have to. I joined the College of Mages but it seemed kinda boring to me. I don't really want to officially join the Stormcloaks nor the Imperials because then if you join one, you just tick off half the NPCs in the game and they won't help you anymore.

 

You kinda have to join with the Greybeards to advance the plot, but other than that, which faction is worth joining if you don't want to be a monster nor a villain? The Greybeards are kinda cool in a sort of Jedi way, but they don't give you very much to do (that I've seen so far anyway). I've thought about the Bards College, although that doesn't really fit with what I imagined for my hero's interests. But, if some of their quests are cool and you don't have to do anything evil for them, I might try it.

[kevkiev]

... I've thought about the Bards College, although that doesn't really fit with what I imagined for my hero's interests. But, if some of their quests are cool and you don't have to do anything evil for them, I might try it.

 

Yeah, it's kinda ironic that the only faction that doesn't have a downside is the one that you don't eventually become the leader. (Unless I've missed something along the way. I half expected my talentless and tone-deaf char to become touted as the mega-bard of all Tamriel or some such thing.)

[LobselVith66]

 

@ trukittn: There's a very wise saying that goes a bit like this -- "Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist." No, none of Ulfric's dialog hints of the racism we've been discussing. On the other hand, do you really think that the Bethesda developers are foresighted enough to include any dialog that doesn't directly relate to Ulfric's questline? Of course not.

 

Given how "the Bear of Markarth" claims that Ulfric demanded that Markarth allow the free worship of Talos, only for Jarl Igmund to openly contradict the claims by the author by explaining that the Empire gathered a Nord militia by offering them religious freedom to worship Talos in Markarth, I think it opens up to the idea that there is conflicting information out there, as well as bias. Look at the conflicting histories about man in Tamriel for an example of how one version is contradicted by another version. There is bias in the world of Thedas, there is slander, and there are different perceptions. I don't doubt that there are characters who think Ulfric is racist, but there's no dialogue from Ulfric that would indicate that he actually is. His primary concern seems to be dealing with the Thalmor, and defeating the Imperial Legion.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Ulfric is far from perfect, but that's the point. Tullius and Ulfric aren't perfect people, they are flawed men, and so are the Legion and the Stormcloaks. I think that, ultimately, they try to do what they think is best for Skyrim, in spite of their flaws.

 

 

Why aren't Khajiit welcome in any city? It's because of racism, pure and simple, and this applies to all the Jarls. Nowhere in the lore of ES is there any indication that there's some sort of official decree that covers all of Skyrim that prohibits Khajiit from entering cities, and, yes, what I said in the above paragraph applies here, too. All I can go on is what I've seen in the game, itself, and what I see is a Jarl (and we're talking specifically about Ulfric, here, so that's why we're hitting on him) who permits racist actions in his city. The city is his responsibility, and has been for as long as he's been Jarl. He can't be blind to the racism. He's done nothing at all to curb it. Ergo, he must be in agreement with it. Therefore, he must be racist.

 

Ulfric is dealing with a civil war. His primary concern seems to be fighting for an independent Skyrim. The fact that there isn't any prohibition on other races entering the Stormcloaks (especially since the two belligerent Nords we initially encounter in Windhelm are berating a Dunmer woman because the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks and fighting for Skyrim's independence) is telling. However, we see racism among other races as well. We even see one Dunmer woman label Argonians as "lazy" while a Dunmer man makes it clear that he doesn't care that a serial killer is murdering women, as long as the women who are killed aren't Dunmer. Racism exists among all the races, not simply the Nords.

 

 

Sure, the Dovahkiin is welcome anywhere, even if he's a Khajiit. If he weren't, then the game couldn't be played as a Khajiit, and Bethesda is too damned lazy to set up a Khajiit-specific questline to garner the favor the Jarls. Besides, there would be consequences to that. "You allow ME into your cities, and you think I'm a Good Person. Are you telling me that you're not wrong in your belief that all other Khajiit are criminals and vagabonds?" That would be just too much for the poor Bethesda writers to contend with. They have a hard enough time writing barely passable storylines as it is.

 

The protagonist can deal with racism from racist characters, and even be challenged to a brawl. Rolff Stone-Fist will make racist remarks towards a non-Nord protagonist. Bolund hates non-Nords, and even condescendingly refers to Argonians as "boot." I don't disagree that it could be addressed more prominently in the narrative, however.

 

And I don't think the stories in Skyrim are bad - such as the dichotomy between the Stormcloaks and the Legion, two flawed groups lead by imperfect leaders who genuinely think they are doing what is best for Skyrim - rather than the abysmal depiction of everyone as a caricature or a mentally unstable lunatic that we see in a game like Dragon Age II. That game was mindless hack and slash. Waves of enemies that came from the ceiling, mindless combat scenes that required no strategy, no effort made to use my brain at all to do anything but hit the "awesome button." Having a protagonist who was refused to do anything except mimic furniture didn't help much, either, in addition to the bad paraphrasing that never matched the dialogue options listed. I could do the things in Skyrim that I was explicitly prevented from doing in Dragon Age II. I don't think Skyrim is perfect, but I think it's a good game.

 

 

Dark Brotherhood -- Yes, it's a bit problematic for role-players, as opposed to the cookie-cutter hack&slash players for which this game was designed. If you dig a little bit, most of the hits are justifiable. Most of them. I have to play in a completely different mindset to do the DB questline in Skyrim -- no qualms about it in Oblivion. And, you're right. The only person in the Abandoned Shack who deserved to die was Astrid. So why didn't you kill her?

 

The Skyrim version of the Dark Brotherhood seemed to be as ruthless as the Cyrodiil version. In Oblivion, you kill an elderly woman, Perennia Draconis, and her entire family. Being a member of the Dark Brotherhood is basically being an assassin, killing a mark because you were paid to carry out an assassination. What was missing was a "Whodunit?" type of quest for the Skyrim branch.

 

 

Thieves Guild -- I like Brynjolf. I'm a guy, and I think he has a sexy voice, but I played as a female on the times I did the TG questline, and my attitudes change when I play as a male. I agree, too. The Skyrim TG is just a bunch of thugs. I loved the TG concept in Oblivion. I detest what Bethesda did to it in Skyrim. I think it was a dirty trick that Bethesda played on us by railroading us into the Thieves Guild. They're very good at entangling their primary questlines to force you to do all of them. This wasn't the case in Oblivion, and I really hope they take enough heat for this strong-arm BS that they don't do it in the next game. Not all of us want to do every quest in the game on every playthough, and we don't want our journals filled with entries we can't clear.

 

The Thieves Guild changes with each game, as each faction is independent of the others. The Morrowind branch was involved in helping the slaves of Morrowind. The Cyrodiil branch was helping the beggers. The Skyrim branch seemed to be brutish as a result of their current leader, and the tone changes dramatically when Karliah enters the picture.

 

I understand that people argue that they should seek out the Guilds, rather than tie them into the Main Quest (i.e. the College of Winterhold that you need to enter to discover information about the Elder Scroll). I don't have an interest in doing everything with one character - I'm perfectly fine doing certain quests with particular characters: a pure mage for the College of Winterhold, a ronin (inspired by Akira Kurosawa's Yojimbo) who works for different groups, ect.

 

 

@ LobselVith66: I DO condemn every Jarl across Skyrim for the open practice of racist policies. It's just that we were talking about Ulfric, and not about all the others. Note that the only truly ubiquitous aspect of this is prejudice against the Khajiit. I play as a Khajiit most of the time, so I feel quite strongly about this. As I pointed out, above, the Dovahkiin MUST be allowed everywhere for the game to be playable as a Khajiit. This is why people are accepting of him. It's a game-play issue and has nothing to do with the logical fact that I shouldn't be able to march my furry butt into any city I want any time I want.

 

I don't think that's the case with this scenerio, as Ulfric, specifically, makes no comment about the race of the protagonist, while Galmar does. If you were correct, then Galmar shouldn't address the Dragonborn's race, but he explicitly does mention it. As a Dunmer protagonist, Galmar asked why my elven protagonist would fight for Skyrim. In fact, it's Galmar who gives his view that Skyrim is "man's land," according to "history." However, there don't seem to be any prohibitions on elves (or any other non-Nords) entering the Stormcloaks, as an elven Thalmor agent can pretend to be a Stormcloak (in addition to the two belligerent Nords in Windhelm who think the Dunmer should become Stormcloaks).

 

 

Saying that the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter don't blame racism on the decrepit state of their part of the city is like saying that American blacks (am I detecting a parallel, here?) don't consider racism at the root of the condition of the slums in which they live. I think American history has proven that it is. I really don't see any difference in Skyrim. Bethesda couldn't make this analogy too obvious, though, so I wouldn't expect them to talk about it in those terms within the game.

 

Resources can't be devoted to the Gray Quarter or the Dunmer even when the Legion gains control of Windhelm, and places an openly progressive Jarl in charge. For all the talk about how Ulfric is culpable for how things are, nothing actually changes when the Legion take control - Argonians from the docks can't enter Windhelm because it would be too dangerous for them, and the Dunmer don't get resources. We know that the proprietor in Falkreath, Solaf, actually has a progressive view on non-Nords because he meet a lot of them during his time as a Stormcloak (in sharp contrast to his brother).

 

Ulfric is fighting a civil war, putting his resources into the struggle against the Legion, and he argues with Galmar about devoting resources to investigating the Jagged Crown, despite the fact that it carries weight among the Nordic people.

[Draconicone]

Its still quite true that the factions offered in skyrim are more limited than they were in prior games, and the shortfalls of those prior games are still in place. In morrowind the factions reached conclusion once you became head but there were many many more factions. Imperial Guard, Imperial Cult, Tribunal Temple, Fighters guild, Mages guild, House Telvanni, House Redoran, House Hlaalu, Morag Tong, Dark brotherhood, thieves guild. The options thinned with Oblivion, and even more so now with Skyrim.

 

The factions are all somewhat less desirable compared to prior games too. Ulfric, racist or not, is not a very likeable character, the whole Thalmor agenda is fairly distasteful, the Mage Academy is bumbling and hated even by their neighbors, the thieves are ragtag and thuggish without many redeeming elements. The plots all neatly end or deteriorate into repetitive radiant AI quests when you become leader, you aren't penalized at all for neglecting your duties and not checking in on them every so often.

 

I really don't know why they haven't overhauled this particular element, Fallout 3 and Fallout NV had factions, and the player never needed to become the ruler of a faction to be incredibly influential. Even with the brotherhood factions the best you ever did was become an honorary paladin. You got to delve into the actual wants and past of your followers too, Veronica's story was quite interesting in New Vegas. So far as I know, Lydia has no past nor any envisioned future beyond being housecarl and the only thing she dislikes is carrying stuff for my character, it makes the skyrim followers and their factions feel rather 2 dimensional.

 

Having quests that navigated the politics of the jobs would be interesting. Actually negotiating with the other Jarls, repairing the academy's name, bringing those idiot court magicians (who all seem to be doing their own thing) to heel to the academy and making it a real entity would be awesome. Likewise giving the thieves guild a benign purpose, or taking them the other extreme advancing your criminal organization across the kingdom would also be something memorable. I'm not sure what the companions would do, except maybe face off with rival mercs, but still it seems like there should be more than just a few radiant quests issued so you have something to do. If you are thane of a hold you should have more matters passed down to you, its these small things that fill in the character depth that Skyrim really seems to lack.

 

These higher positions seem like they should also be associated with some money sinks. I'm nowhere close to done with the game and I easily have 125,000 gold in my purse, and probably 10x that in my house chests. That's without even focusing on building my bank up. If I were a little more picky about my weight to gold ratio I'd probably be up even more.

[trukittn]

Is there a faction in the game that does not have a major downside? I joined the Companions in one gamesave only to find out that they want to turn me into a werewolf. I don't want to RP a werewolf, so I deleted that gamesave. In another gamesave, I tried to talk Aventus Arentino out of having the orphanage matron killed, but there wasn't any option to do that, only to kill the matron. So I did and wound up ticking off the Dark Brotherhood and having to kill some random tied up NPC in order to escape without having to join them or die. So I deleted that gamesave. I don't want to RP a villain any more than I have to. I joined the College of Mages but it seemed kinda boring to me. I don't really want to officially join the Stormcloaks nor the Imperials because then if you join one, you just tick off half the NPCs in the game and they won't help you anymore.

 

You kinda have to join with the Greybeards to advance the plot, but other than that, which faction is worth joining if you don't want to be a monster nor a villain? The Greybeards are kinda cool in a sort of Jedi way, but they don't give you very much to do (that I've seen so far anyway). I've thought about the Bards College, although that doesn't really fit with what I imagined for my hero's interests. But, if some of their quests are cool and you don't have to do anything evil for them, I might try it.

 

The Bard's College quests are few, and most of them are fetch quests. I wonder if they will expand on this guild in future DLC simply because without mods, there's no reason to actually become a bard. You can't play instruments or sing in vanilla Skyrim.

 

I shy away from the really villainous stuff too, and cause of that, I feel there's a whole lot less to do quest-wise for someone like me in Skyrim than there was in Cyrodiil. Good thing I love to explore! But to answer your question, in my personal opinion, your only choices are the Companions and the Mage College for guild factions that don't try to force your moral compass into the bad guy territory. I disliked the werewolf part of the Companions too (until I installed the Tales of Lycanthropy mod) but you are given the ability to cure yourself of the disease at the end of their storyline. As well as quests to cure some of the companions who are of the same mind. Oddly though, I've had more fun as a werewolf now with the mod that forces you to change on full moons. It gives my character an interesting quirk, and she's developed a taste for Thalmor. Om nom. I imagine her looking at most Altmer with a hungry sort of grin when she sees them now in her unassuming khajiit form.

[Hersir666]

I do agree, but not because of spoliers. More just to conflicting stroylines/philosphy. I become the leader of the companions, who try to stand for the values of warrios; honor, duty, glory etc. Then I turn around and become the leader of the thieves guild and the d. brotherhood, which stand for the opposite. So, either you have to kill part of your roleplayer or forgo a bunch of quests with that certain character.

 

Just think that Bethesda should have made it so that, if you play a warrior character (just example) and become the leader of the companions, you can still participate in the other guild storyline or quests (which can be altered) without being a full fledged memeber or leader.

[kevkiev]

I do agree, but not because of spoliers. More just to conflicting stroylines/philosphy. I become the leader of the companions, who try to stand for the values of warrios; honor, duty, glory etc. Then I turn around and become the leader of the thieves guild and the d. brotherhood, which stand for the opposite. So, either you have to kill part of your roleplayer or forgo a bunch of quests with that certain character.

 

Just think that Bethesda should have made it so that, if you play a warrior character (just example) and become the leader of the companions, you can still participate in the other guild storyline or quests (which can be altered) without being a full fledged memeber or leader.

 

Yeah, that's the nasty rub. I actually can only rationalize some of the stuff my char does by imagining that, after one too many knocks on the head, she went a bit schizo. Started out as, and often still tends to be, a shining light of virtue. But in order to get her favourite horse and go on some adventures she became a hired killer of innocent people (including the Emperor of the jurisdiction to which she swore allegiance for gawdsakes!). And even set up the DBH with torture equipment in their new digs (that still kinda bugs me). In order to get archery training and an opportunity to explore cool new environments with a couple cool (though criminal) companions, she started robbing (& framing) innocent people. The only limit on any of this is that she'll refuse to ransack the house of Mjoll the lioness. Although lately she hasn't completed any DBH hits or gone back to the sanctuary. I'd say it's 'cuz she's grown back a conscience but, let's face it, she got her fave horse (and has tons of coin) so it's pretty easy to be righteous when she's already got all she wanted from the DBH.

[Cobwebmaster]

I do agree, but not because of spoliers. More just to conflicting stroylines/philosphy. I become the leader of the companions, who try to stand for the values of warrios; honor, duty, glory etc. Then I turn around and become the leader of the thieves guild and the d. brotherhood, which stand for the opposite. So, either you have to kill part of your roleplayer or forgo a bunch of quests with that certain character.

 

Just think that Bethesda should have made it so that, if you play a warrior character (just example) and become the leader of the companions, you can still participate in the other guild storyline or quests (which can be altered) without being a full fledged memeber or leader.

 

Yeah, that's the nasty rub. I actually can only rationalize some of the stuff my char does by imagining that, after one too many knocks on the head, she went a bit schizo. Started out as, and often still tends to be, a shining light of virtue. But in order to get her favourite horse and go on some adventures she became a hired killer of innocent people (including the Emperor of the jurisdiction to which she swore allegiance for gawdsakes!). And even set up the DBH with torture equipment in their new digs (that still kinda bugs me). In order to get archery training and an opportunity to explore cool new environments with a couple cool (though criminal) companions, she started robbing (& framing) innocent people. The only limit on any of this is that she'll refuse to ransack the house of Mjoll the lioness. Although lately she hasn't completed any DBH hits or gone back to the sanctuary. I'd say it's 'cuz she's grown back a conscience but, let's face it, she got her fave horse (and has tons of coin) so it's pretty easy to be righteous when she's already got all she wanted from the DBH.

 

If you want to truly role play and maybe take advantage of the games replayability aspect then I think it would be better that once you have cast your lot into one faction in Skyrim Companions, thieves, Mages or whatever you should maybe be prohibited from progressing in any other guild if not actually barred from joining. This will do several things the most obvious of which is to allow you to focus your skill development as an individual and set up a skill shortage selection criteria in any followers you may recruit. Unlike TESIV I see no particular benefit in taking on multiple faction quests. In Skyrim being a warrior with or without restoration skills is so de rigueur that becoming a thief/assassin or warrior mage means that you have to go througth the whole game experiencing at best tolerance for your skills or at worst downright prejudice or discrimination but hey if you are the Dragonborn then who gives a ?? Mind you there is a parallel with the Witcher here that even if you save civilisation from extermination and/or slavery you are still going to be despised as a mage anyway under the current game rules

[RedRavyn]

If you want to truly role play and maybe take advantage of the games replayability aspect then I think it would be better that once you have cast your lot into one faction in Skyrim Companions, thieves, Mages or whatever you should maybe be prohibited from progressing in any other guild if not actually barred from joining.

 

I agree in principle, although it's possible that none of the "main guilds" would object if you were also a member of the Bard's College. <sarcasm> After all, it isn't as though you actually learn how to sing, dance, play musical instruments, and compose/recite poetry there. </sarcasm> You still shouldn't be disallowed from interacting with some of those guilds, though. Just because I'm a Companion doesn't mean I don't need access to advanced spells, most of which can only be acquired through college mages, who won't sell them to you if you aren't a member of the college. Similarly, as a member of the College, I might do some "independent thievery" on my own, and they don't even need to know about it. Why should I have to join the Thieves Guild to use Vex as a fence? The guild needs money, so they need my business, whether I'm a member in good standing, or not.

 

Honestly, though, I really doubt you'll see this happening in any future ES game. I think Bethesda has firmly rooted themselves into the philosophy that it's OK for them for them to railroad you into doing every single one of their "guild" questlines whether you want to or not. This is probably my biggest gripe with Skyrim, but is indicative of the increasing amount of hand-holding we've seen in ES games from Morrowind on. I'm fully expecting to see the next game come with periodic nags that pop up saying things like "You haven't joined the Thieves Guild yet!" Yes, more sarcasm, but let's face it. For a lot of us one of the most annoying things a game developer can do is to interleave missions so that you can't complete one without doing another one (that you might, for ethical/moral reasons, might not even want to do). Entanglement might be good for quantum physics. It's an extremely poor tactic in quest design.

[Cobwebmaster]

If you want to truly role play and maybe take advantage of the games replayability aspect then I think it would be better that once you have cast your lot into one faction in Skyrim Companions, thieves, Mages or whatever you should maybe be prohibited from progressing in any other guild if not actually barred from joining.

 

I agree in principle, although it's possible that none of the "main guilds" would object if you were also a member of the Bard's College. <sarcasm> After all, it isn't as though you actually learn how to sing, dance, play musical instruments, and compose/recite poetry there. </sarcasm> You still shouldn't be disallowed from interacting with some of those guilds, though. Just because I'm a Companion doesn't mean I don't need access to advanced spells, most of which can only be acquired through college mages, who won't sell them to you if you aren't a member of the college. Similarly, as a member of the College, I might do some "independent thievery" on my own, and they don't even need to know about it. Why should I have to join the Thieves Guild to use Vex as a fence? The guild needs money, so they need my business, whether I'm a member in good standing, or not.

 

Honestly, though, I really doubt you'll see this happening in any future ES game. I think Bethesda has firmly rooted themselves into the philosophy that it's OK for them for them to railroad you into doing every single one of their "guild" questlines whether you want to or not. This is probably my biggest gripe with Skyrim, but is indicative of the increasing amount of hand-holding we've seen in ES games from Morrowind on. I'm fully expecting to see the next game come with periodic nags that pop up saying things like "You haven't joined the Thieves Guild yet!" Yes, more sarcasm, but let's face it. For a lot of us one of the most annoying things a game developer can do is to interleave missions so that you can't complete one without doing another one (that you might, for ethical/moral reasons, might not even want to do). Entanglement might be good for quantum physics. It's an extremely poor tactic in quest design.

 

I think the point you make even using Noel Coward's critique cannot be denied. Other software houses like CD Projekt develop ist person rpgs using choice AND consequence. Denying players the right to choose whether or not they want to become guild masters is something Skyrim does but Oblivion didn't. One of the things that irritates me about Skyrim (and to be honest on balance there aren't that many) is the default number of quest lines that appear in my journal. Meeting Brynjolf? in Riften is ok but when as a Nord Skyrim warrior I find out that he wants me to plant false evidence I rightly deem that such an action is dishonourable even if it is against a forgeigner. However the quest line does not disappear! At least in Oblivion you didn't have to do the quests if you didn't want to. Joining the mages guild for example required you to gain approval from various local guild heads. After you became a member you got a nice comfy bed anywhere there was a guild house but you were not forced to take the path to leadership. Likewise in the fighters guild.

 

For me the point about role playing is that to get the best from it you need to immerse yourself totally in the role. Warrior, mage or thief, each must have a worthwhile attainment attached to the part you play. I don't like getting confused about which role it is I am playing. I can always replay the game as one of the other types!. I think that Skyrim/EA has got lazy and budget conscious here. Rather than make the guilds a really worthwhile thing and properly develop them we get in each case a sort minimal effort to career progression within them. I guess that someone rather than do the right thing and flesh out the roles they just made you do all of the one's around to bump up game time. I think the game loses major points on this aspect of it - the faction quests are shallow!