todd92371 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I have always asked myself. Is this or that particular war justifiable. Various wars throughout time. The reason I ask? I have been contemplating becoming involved in this particular war. But, I'm just not seeing any reason that compels me to do so. I do disagree with the whole "Talos" thing. But, can anyone convince me otherwise? :) Edited March 2, 2012 by todd92371 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyrusAmell Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I have always asked myself. Is this or that particular war justifiable? Various wars throughout time. The reason I ask? I have been contemplating becoming involved in this particular war. But, I'm just not seeing any reason that compels me to do so. I do disagree with the whole "Talos" thing. But, can anyone convince me otherwise? :) History View (skip If too long) As with any war, you have your SOB's. The Empire did try to kill you but that aside it is a stabilizing power throughout Tamriel, once having united the lands of men, mer, and even the argonians and khajiit. Equitable to the Roman Empire it took all these Kingdoms that were once their own realm and forged them under a single power. It's not perfect by a longshot, in the Elder Scrolls game Hammerfell the Redgaurds had to fight the Empire for better rights. Then let’s not forget the numerous little atrocities and misrules throughout its long, long history. This is actually the Third Empire to pop up, being the one that was established by General Talos before his apotheosis (Godhood). Right now the Empire is dying, having suffered numerous defeats it went from being the Roman Empire to the Byzantine Empire in the 200 years since the last game (went from big to small you see). You as a player must decide if it is worth preserving and fighting for. The Stormcloacks under Ulfric see the Empire's days as numbered and have decided to make Skyrim an independent Kingdom. The immediate benefit would be ejecting the Thalmor from Skyrim who are oppressing the right of the people of Skyrim to conduct worship of Talos (the equivalent of persecuting Christians just because Jesus was a man, to put it plainly, or Buddhists for the Buddha yadda yadda... respects all around). Certainly the Americans during the Revolution had less compelling reasons to become independent and it worked out just fine for us (Occasionally being assholes and all aside). Does Ulfric just want power for himself? Maybe, but political ambitions are technically in the job description of being High King/Queen. The success of the Stormcloack Rebellion would destroy the Empire and bring about a new age of independent kingdoms in Tamriel. My Choice I went with the Empire; sure they lost the last war because the Emperor capitulated but it’s been 30 years and time enough for boys to become men and to rebuild the Legions (something the long lived elves forgot to factor). With the Dragonborn leading the vanguard the Empire will not lose the next war with the Thalmor, and I am all about central power (The U.S. would have been destroyed had our little "Civil War" gone the other way). Concerning the Stormcloacks, you have the benefit of being the right-hand man of a King which would certainly have more benefits than being a soldier under a General. Though I am sure you will get the Emperor's gaze soon enough. So in the short term, serving Ulfric will net you more benefits (or should atleast). Edited March 2, 2012 by CyrusAmell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidus44 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I didn't find and can't offer any justification for joining either side. The results of playing for one side or the other, neither achieves a 100% satisfactory result IMO, nor does it change anything in the rest of the game. Not becoming involved at all doesn't change anything in the game either so thats a possible choice to make as well. If there is anything that has me leaning one way or another on a choice its how certain Jarls are treated at the end. This can be avoided by not choosing a side, of course. To be honest, I just join the side that first pops up in the journal, because joining and fighting for either side doesn't seem to achieve anything significant, satisfactory or worthwhile, its just something else to do in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd92371 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 [q I went with the Empire; sure they lost the last war because the Emperor capitulated but it’s been 30 years and time enough for boys to become men and to rebuild the Legions (something the long lived elves forgot to factor). With the Dragonborn leading the vanguard the Empire will not lose the next war with the Thalmor, and I am all about central power (The U.S. would have been destroyed had our little "Civil War" gone the other way). Concerning the Stormcloacks, you have the benefit of being the right-hand man of a King which would certainly have more benefits than being a soldier under a General. Though I am sure you will get the Emperor's gaze soon enough. So in the short term, serving Ulfric will net you more benefits (or should atleast). THANK you so much for an awesome overview. You are a good writer! You have given me many points to ponder now. The denial of a people's group to worship really makes me want to stand up for the Stormcloaks. I do agree- it is intermixed with the possible entrance of a de-stablilizing force that could make matters worse with time.Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyrusAmell Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staind716 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I always go with the Stormcloaks if I bother getting involved at all. I kinda hold a grudge against people who try to behead me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd92371 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I always go with the Stormcloaks if I bother getting involved at all. I kinda hold a grudge against people who try to behead me. I kinda hold a grudge against people who try to behead me. That would make an awesome bumper sticker and I have to agree! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyrusAmell Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) The attempt on your life is small change compared to the overall political scheme. Tamriel is poised for yet another war with the Thalmor vs. The Humans (Empire or Stormcloack Confederation, it makes little difference). The Thalmor, at least the ones we talk to, are convinced they will win the next war hands down despite the fact they got their asses kicked in Hammerfell and most of their army annihilated in Cyrodil. Even General Tullius predicts a renewed conflict, and even suspects that the effort of the Thalmor to wipe out Talos Worship in Skyrim was no more than attempt to ignite conflict in the Empire and weaken it. The Thalmor did not want an outright victory for the Stormcloacks in Skyrim; they had in fact hoped that the civil war would continue to grind both sides down. Consider this: Whoever wins the Empire/Stormcloack conflict will likely be the side that marches on Alinor and puts an end to the Thalmor once and for all. Anyone who has read "The Bear in Markarth" knows what Ulfric is capable of and what he will do when the elves are at his mercy. All fine and well if you are into that sort of ... thing. The Empire, however, will seek to re-incorporate the Summerset Isle into it and attempt to limit the collateral damage to that end. I hate the Thalmor but not High Elves and with this in mind I believe that a united Empire will be for the best. The book I mentioned is on the Wiki, although it likely has heavy Imperial bias:http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bear_of_Markarth But if you really, really hate the Thalmor and don't like the Empire then of course the Stormcloacks is the way to go then. Edited March 2, 2012 by CyrusAmell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I think we have to take The Bear of Markarth with a healthy dose of salt. Remember, the book's author is an Imperial with some pretty clear biases and he may well have exaggerated the story, especially since he seems to have gotten his information second-hand. While there are certainly Stormcloak supporters who are capable of vile behavior (such as the Silver Blood family), we can't be sure of Ulfric's involvement in any crimes. After supporting the Stormcloaks, I found a trip to the lower levels of Blue Palace was a humbling experience. Is this true if you support the Empire instead? I'm guessing it is, and there is no clear-cut right and wrong about the whole situation. This isn't Evil Empire vs. Virtuous Rebels or Evil Rebels vs. Virtuous Empire here. It's a much-more nuanced story. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyrusAmell Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) The Jarls going to the Blue Palace basement? Happens with the Imperials too only the Stormcloack ones are made to sit at the big table at tne Windhelm Castle under the guard of the new Jarl, Free-Winters. The Stormcloack ones are also less sympathetic, the Riften Jarl and Dawnstar Jarl being inept & stupid rulers. Oddly enough the Jarl of Winterhold just moves into Free-Winter's house with his family so I am guessing that they knew each other and where friends. I find it funny when the Imperials win, and I was devastated when I found the area where the Imperial backed Jarls where held up. I was especially heartbroken when Jarl Balgruuf told me his kids where lost back in Whiterun and he prayed that Vignar Gray-Mane did not find them. And of course I felt terrible when I talked to Jarl Idgrod Ravencrone with her entire family their with her. Honestly, the Stormcloack Jarls got off easy. They get the run of the Main Hall, sitting down at the table or leaning against a wall when they want to. Though perhaps a similar setup was planned with the Imperial Jarls and Bethesda did not have the time or compulsion. Edited March 2, 2012 by CyrusAmell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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