An update on Vortex development

[Cccerebro]

Would there be any compatibility with OBMM packages?

[CzBuCHi]

In response to post #55328713.

krishane143 wrote:

I'm just glad it seems that they'll be putting a function that allows us to import our setups from NMM/MO to Vortex. I just installed the complete Fallout 4 game and have NMM still at 0.63.14. I have around 260+ mods (many are updates/patches of existing mods in the list) but I haven't even installed any single mod nor have even started playing the game except to test if the game itself works. I'm afraid that once I get to sorting my stuff in NMM and actually play before Vortex comes out, I'll be left having to restart my gameplay and mod setups from scratch just to migrate there.

 

I guess I'll be playing something else before Vortex actually releases some time in the future. But hey, at least I'm ready when it comes out, right? :sweat:

i personally prefer, that vortex dont have any import from nmm / mo - simple external tool, that will convert nmm data into vortex data would do the trick...

[CzBuCHi]

In response to post #54934853.

seancdaug wrote:

 

You're saying you're switching profiles all the time, but these are all things that are still possible (just as easily and quickly) as with NMM or MO.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just flatly untrue. Creating links isn't a particularly time consuming process, but it isn't, and pretty much cannot be, as fast as MO's VFS. If you're talking about creating a dozen or two links, the chances of anyone actually noticing are close to nil. But, at the moment, my Fallout 4 data directory contains around 150,000 files. Even an optimized process to scan the directory structure and create the needed links is going to be noticeably slow. Not hours, of course, but minutes is certainly reasonable. If I were still actively working on mods, and still in the habit of switching Mod Organizer profiles regularly, that would be plenty long enough to be a significant irritation.

 

I understand the benefits of Vortex's approach, I really do. But the PR here seem to be either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the trade-offs. When Vortex comes out, if people have been promised something that works "just as easily and quickly" in all things, they are going to be seriously disappointed to find out its not true. And I say this as someone who is likely going to switch over to Vortex when the time comes. I'm not averse to making certain trade-offs, I'd just rather everyone be more upfront about the fact that those trade-offs are going to exist.

i created simple cmd tool, thats search for all files inside MO2 mods directory, merges them into single dictionary (file path -> 'winning' mod name - based on modlist.txt), compares that dictionary agains previous one (if any) and uses that diff to update hard links inside fallout 4 data directory ...

im thinking, that switching profiles would mean loading old and new profile file dictionary (file path -> 'winning' mod name), compare them and update game data links accordingly - witch will take more time more your profiless differentiates, but im guessing u dont switch profile every time u wanna start game ...

also i no longer need to start MO2 to start modded game, witch got me thinking, that vortex dont need to be 64bit to mod 64bit game - it only needs to understand game data structure, no need to actually start the game itself (specially if it uses filesystem supported links, that are not created on the fly like VSF does it)

[Target1213]

Excellent news. I have been holding back from playing SkyrimSE for Vortex. Wishing The ENTIRE crew Happiness and health this holiday season! Be Safe!

[HardRain1911]

In response to post #56028266. #56029941, #56037291, #56037296, #56037301, #56037306, #56037311, #56041476, #56088041 are all replies on the same post.

ErusPrime wrote:

With the new mod manager will there be functionality for distributed modpacks via nexus? I know developers don't want third party distribution but nxm is the distribution. The entire system is already in place to have curated lists of mods and configurations that doesn't violate the distribution requirements of the author and gives a nice little one click instead of having to download manually, merge and patch, load order, CTD, google it, find nothing helpful, ask on reddit/discord/forums, get told to google it, say f*#@ it and go play something else.

Ethreon wrote: Mod packages are not allowed according to the rules, not because of technical limitations.

ErusPrime wrote: I feel like you don't understand what I mean when I say mod pack. What I mean when I say mod pack is that nexus has the technology in place to create curated collections of mods without changing distribution. Say I want all the Sim Settlements mods. I go to each page, hit download, configure and load order and all that stuff. With a collection, you only have to distribute the links. A list of those links in a format readable by vortex. One click, all the mods, no broken rules.

Ethreon wrote: If you are posting, press Submit once and wait. This isn't a bug, just server lag.

Mod packs are not allowed, regardless of what you want to call them or how you think they should be done. Even if they were to pursue this and now allow it, what you want would simply not work.

Syfexx wrote: Why wouldnt it work ? i cant see how a collection of mods that work together that can be downloaded with the click of a single button wouldnt work? i doubt any author would have problems letting ppl link their mods for a vortex readable format.

I understand exactly what you mean by "modpacks," basically what steam workshop does. From my understanding the tech can do that with Nexus and Vortex.
But I believe what they are saying in their rude way is that feature would 1. be against the rulebook/terms and conditions of Nexus and 2. would possibly infringe on Steams territory as a third party distributor thus risking steam taking action against Nexus as they have a gentlemen's agreement to stay to each others side of the gaming sandbox.

[sr383]

In response to post #56028336. #56040656, #56055571, #56065816 are all replies on the same post.

ThD17gj692 wrote: I'm not technical nor a mod creator, so my question may be naive. My favorite Fall Out game is FO3, however, after upgrading from Win 7 to Win 10, I can only get about 10 to 20 minutes of playtime using all the mods I like (140 including merged mods) before my game crashes. Before the upgrade, I could play several hours before crashing.

Will Vortex extend play time? That is, will the game engine perform as if there are no mods added? It seems to me that a major reason for creating MO was to deal with all the problems of the buggy game engine used for Skyrim. Of course, this may not be the case, but if you only have a choice of a few mods you don't really need a mod manager, but if there are thousands of mods to choose from, then a manager is essential.

Only the Bethesda games have thousands of mods to choose from and Skyrim has the most. So all the merits of virtualization aside, will these games perform better using Vortex? I hope so and plan to find out because I will use Vortex to rebuild my FO3, NV and Skyrim games as soon as it becomes available.

Rogdonlp wrote: ThD17gj692

If you are using the Fallout Stutter Remover and installed the Fall Creator W10 update your FO3 crashes are most likely due to the fact that the W10 update made changes to W10 that were incompatible with the settings in your Fallout Stutter Remover ini file. See the discussion here: http://forum.step-project.com/topic/12717-problems-with-fallout-stutter-resmover/

My FO3 was crashing and freezing. I changed the ini file and my problems are gone.

Good Luck

ThD17gj692 wrote: Thanks very much for responding. I haven't played FO3 in over a year because I'm waitng for Vortex to rebuild my game. I did just change " Fallout Stutter Remover.ini" (per your advice): "iDefaultMode = 1" and "fMaximumFPS =0". in anticipation of rebuilding FO3.

Happy Holidays

Rogdonlp wrote: I just reinstalled FO3 using MO and the STEP Guide "http://wiki.step-project.com/User:Kelmych/Fallout3" Everything worked fine. You don't have to wait for Vortex if you don't want to. Also, it may take them a few months to iron out the problems that are bounded to appear.

Also, Gamerpoets has released a 13 part Youtube series on modding FO3. You may not want to use his mod list, but the setup information is very good. Also, he has the latest 'proper' way to clean the DLC esms.

Have fun.

I just run Tale of Two Wastelands. The NV engine is more stable.

[Ethreon]

In response to post #56063171.

ozoak wrote:

 

In response to post #56051751.

ozoak wrote:

In response to post #56044656.

ozoak wrote:

I think everyone who's mentioned "mod packs" in this thread is using it as convenient naming only - I don't believe any of those people are actually suggesting downloading, combining and republishing the mods.

I'd be more inclined to call the concept a "playlist", because I believe what people would like to see is something that has more in common with that principle than what we typically call a modpack.

And I don't see how it *wouldn't* be possible, if not in the core utility but at least through the API that has been spruiked a couple of times.

It would essentially be a sub-set of a profile, simply an ordered list of ID's with min version numbers without the rest of the profile data.

Will Vortex be smart enough to alert users when mods listed in a profile are missing? I hope so, because even without playlists of mods users will from time to time screw up and manually delete mods when they shouldn't.

So a very non-complex solution would be: create profile, import playlist, Vortex alerts user to which mods are missing (all, or assuming the user may have already downloaded some, only some of), uses Vortex to download them.

None of us know the specifics, of course, of what the API will allow but if it allows interactions with the Profiles, then as I said, I can't see how it wouldn't be possible.

It'll be interesting to see what the API is capable of when it get launched.

Congratulations, you now have a broken game.

Fairly certain that you're not comprehending what I'm suggesting.

Why on earth would a game break by having an ordered list of mods with version info as a template for what is required?

It would be a trivial logic to work through:

* create new profile

* import mod list

* check if any mods in imported list are available because they have been previously downloaded

** If mod has not been downloaded, mark mods as "missing, requires download"

If Vortex is already linking, and not copying/moving, mods then I am hoping it would already have a mechanism to detect if a mod downloaded has gone missing.

Why would the game break?

To me this seems like an attempt to break your game by downloading and installing a bunch of games someone put together as a list. While I'm sure this can be done, I don't see it not being used by unexperienced or clueless users and breaking their games easily. Whoever makes such list would also have to make sure the patches required for compatibility are included, and I assume you'd then install everything yourself. All in all, while good, this sounds like an easy game breaking feature. But I'm sure someone can make a module since Vertex is advertised as allowing such.

 

 

Less abrupt and combative than last time, so I can work with this :smile:

 

I agree with the conclusion, but not the scope of your premise? I completely agree, a mod playlist could be unplayable or degrade the experience (and in case I wasn't clear I wasn't suggesting adding a mod playlist to an already ordered loadout would work - it would need to be a clean profile with the user having an option to add further mods afterwards) however if a playlist was a category on Nexus, and they had comments/forum just like mods, then they would be no more and no less prone to not working or blindsiding someone who employs one than any single mod. I haven't bothered to look at how they're being categorised but there are users already uploads "mods" which are just lists of other mods they assert work well together.

 

Is there a difference between individually downloading 5 mods and downloading a playlist which links 5 mods? In terms of known compatibility etc.

Sure, some mods provide patches but many do not. I think someone who didn't bother to read the description and at least view recent comments would have equal chance either way of causing issues for their gameplay.

 

I spent the best part of 3 hours last night going through the remainder of my 'go to' list of mods and getting their (now) released SSE conversion or downloading alternatives to them [side note, pretty pleased - around 90% over the line]. That's around 200 mods, and only a small % of those offer compatibility patches - the vast majority are (or at least were) a roll of the dice. Just looking at that core group of mods I probably have downloaded/tried/tested twice that trying to find workable combos.

 

Theoretically if I pumped out a playlist, it would be more stable than starting from scratch. Think also things like STEP if there was a playlist 'core' to kick things off.

Mod playlists definitely wouldn't be the answer to everything, but IMO totally doable and no less risky than 'suck it and see' approach to adding mods, and just like with all mods - use at own risk, the key would be having feedback via comments so users could gauge how well they've worked for others.

Your playlist still requires working out on it. You need to make patches yourself, specially for all the weapon and armour stuff. This would be best served as a "cue to download" with a play button which could be done on your phone when you're at work or away, and once home you can just start installing the downloaded mods. As I said, I'm sure in the end someone can make what you want since you can add modules to Vortex.

[ozoak]

 

In response to post #56063171.

 

 

 

ozoak wrote:

In response to post #56051751.

 

 

 

ozoak wrote:

In response to post #56044656.

 

 

 

ozoak wrote:

I think everyone who's mentioned "mod packs" in this thread is using it as convenient naming only - I don't believe any of those people are actually suggesting downloading, combining and republishing the mods.

I'd be more inclined to call the concept a "playlist", because I believe what people would like to see is something that has more in common with that principle than what we typically call a modpack.

And I don't see how it *wouldn't* be possible, if not in the core utility but at least through the API that has been spruiked a couple of times.

It would essentially be a sub-set of a profile, simply an ordered list of ID's with min version numbers without the rest of the profile data.

Will Vortex be smart enough to alert users when mods listed in a profile are missing? I hope so, because even without playlists of mods users will from time to time screw up and manually delete mods when they shouldn't.

So a very non-complex solution would be: create profile, import playlist, Vortex alerts user to which mods are missing (all, or assuming the user may have already downloaded some, only some of), uses Vortex to download them.

None of us know the specifics, of course, of what the API will allow but if it allows interactions with the Profiles, then as I said, I can't see how it wouldn't be possible.

It'll be interesting to see what the API is capable of when it get launched.

Congratulations, you now have a broken game.

Fairly certain that you're not comprehending what I'm suggesting.

Why on earth would a game break by having an ordered list of mods with version info as a template for what is required?

It would be a trivial logic to work through:

* create new profile

* import mod list

* check if any mods in imported list are available because they have been previously downloaded

** If mod has not been downloaded, mark mods as "missing, requires download"

If Vortex is already linking, and not copying/moving, mods then I am hoping it would already have a mechanism to detect if a mod downloaded has gone missing.

Why would the game break?

To me this seems like an attempt to break your game by downloading and installing a bunch of games someone put together as a list. While I'm sure this can be done, I don't see it not being used by unexperienced or clueless users and breaking their games easily. Whoever makes such list would also have to make sure the patches required for compatibility are included, and I assume you'd then install everything yourself. All in all, while good, this sounds like an easy game breaking feature. But I'm sure someone can make a module since Vertex is advertised as allowing such.

Less abrupt and combative than last time, so I can work with this :smile:

I agree with the conclusion, but not the scope of your premise? I completely agree, a mod playlist could be unplayable or degrade the experience (and in case I wasn't clear I wasn't suggesting adding a mod playlist to an already ordered loadout would work - it would need to be a clean profile with the user having an option to add further mods afterwards) however if a playlist was a category on Nexus, and they had comments/forum just like mods, then they would be no more and no less prone to not working or blindsiding someone who employs one than any single mod. I haven't bothered to look at how they're being categorised but there are users already uploads "mods" which are just lists of other mods they assert work well together.

Is there a difference between individually downloading 5 mods and downloading a playlist which links 5 mods? In terms of known compatibility etc.

Sure, some mods provide patches but many do not. I think someone who didn't bother to read the description and at least view recent comments would have equal chance either way of causing issues for their gameplay.

I spent the best part of 3 hours last night going through the remainder of my 'go to' list of mods and getting their (now) released SSE conversion or downloading alternatives to them [side note, pretty pleased - around 90% over the line]. That's around 200 mods, and only a small % of those offer compatibility patches - the vast majority are (or at least were) a roll of the dice. Just looking at that core group of mods I probably have downloaded/tried/tested twice that trying to find workable combos.

Theoretically if I pumped out a playlist, it would be more stable than starting from scratch. Think also things like STEP if there was a playlist 'core' to kick things off.

Mod playlists definitely wouldn't be the answer to everything, but IMO totally doable and no less risky than 'suck it and see' approach to adding mods, and just like with all mods - use at own risk, the key would be having feedback via comments so users could gauge how well they've worked for others.

Your playlist still requires working out on it. You need to make patches yourself, specially for all the weapon and armour stuff. This would be best served as a "cue to download" with a play button which could be done on your phone when you're at work or away, and once home you can just start installing the downloaded mods. As I said, I'm sure in the end someone can make what you want since you can add modules to Vortex.

 

 

Hey, I don't want it :) Just reasonably sure that there's a demand for it.

The wisdom of such packs is an entirely separate consideration to "can it be done?" though, I think. Personally I wouldn't use a full list of mods suggested by someone else in a one-click-and-play model because I like to check out, thoroughly, each mod I'm using in a play through.

 

As I was sitting back thinking about it, I came up with a scenario, a really common one, that could easily make such lists virtually worthless (certainly very unpredictable): mods with domod/bain installers. It'd be easy enough to throw together a list of simple mods, including their associated patch files, and a load order for them, but once we consider mods that are configure during install, it gets hairy. I mean you could do a quick list (for instance) of a UNP bodmod, and some basic armours that are UNP ready, but what if you then added some texture pack that has dozens of options, or an armour pack that includes half a dozen different body types. Just wouldn't work. I've no doubt someone will give this a go once they're got an API to work with, but for my thinking it'll be scripted mod installers that bring it undone as a concept.

[BeowulfSchmidt]

 

In response to post #56027081.

 

 

 

BeowulfSchmidt wrote:

In response to post #55826861. #55826971, #55827211, #55963086, #55981276 are all replies on the same post.

 

The way I understand Symbolic Links is that they are like advanced shortcuts .

Not sure how the links will be implemented but my guess is that Links to the actual mod files will get inserted into the Data directory at game startup via Vortex and when the game exits those links get deleted leaving a clean Data folder that way you can have multiple profiles and such without problems.

WRT what symbolic links are, that's pretty much correct. To running programs, at least with regard to opening, reading and writing contents, they are the file to which the link points.

Honestly, if I were doing this, I'd be tempted to investigate making the Data folder itself a link, and have separate "Data" folders for each profile, then fill each of those profile data folders with links to the individual files, which would be in still other locations. That way, switching profiles is a matter of changing the Data directory link, and not copying. The heavy lifting (relatively speaking) of filling up a profile data folder with the appropriate stuff would be handled interactively with the user, rather at game start up time.

I haven't done much with links though, so I don't know the performance characteristics, and how well links to links to links are handled.

Sure, I agree. Anything to keep/ or return the data folder to "Stock" just makes good Sense. I would like to believe that they are pursuing this effort in Vortex is some manner maybe like what you suggested. Like you, I don't know a lot about links or how they are going to use or not use them. I just hope its better then NMM was.

 

 

Given who is working on it, I'm tempted to say that Vortex being better than NMM is a given. :) I've been a developer on large teams long enough, however, to know that it's not just one person that makes or breaks an app.

 

My hopes remain high, though, and will until something comes along to make me change my mind.

[BeowulfSchmidt]

 

 

You're saying you're switching profiles all the time, but these are all things that are still possible (just as easily and quickly) as with NMM or MO.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just flatly untrue. Creating links isn't a particularly time consuming process, but it isn't, and pretty much cannot be, as fast as MO's VFS. If you're talking about creating a dozen or two links, the chances of anyone actually noticing are close to nil. But, at the moment, my Fallout 4 data directory contains around 150,000 files. Even an optimized process to scan the directory structure and create the needed links is going to be noticeably slow. Not hours, of course, but minutes is certainly reasonable. If I were still actively working on mods, and still in the habit of switching Mod Organizer profiles regularly, that would be plenty long enough to be a significant irritation.

 

I understand the benefits of Vortex's approach, I really do. But the PR here seem to be either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the trade-offs. When Vortex comes out, if people have been promised something that works "just as easily and quickly" in all things, they are going to be seriously disappointed to find out its not true. And I say this as someone who is likely going to switch over to Vortex when the time comes. I'm not averse to making certain trade-offs, I'd just rather everyone be more upfront about the fact that those trade-offs are going to exist.

 

 

Your point about trade-offs is well taken; I agree with it entirely as a general rule. However, I don't think it's going to be as big a difference, even for large mod setups such as yours, as you fear. The vast majority of the "heavy lifting" of creating profiles and links to individual files, and updating whatever the game uses for "load order" data, will likely be done by Vortex itself interactively with the user, as they add mods and adjust overrides and conflicts. Since those will involve only a few files at a time, the time spent manipulating the links will be negligible, and mostly unnoticeable to the user. If done the way I think is likely, i.e. a directory for each profile, which is filled with links to individual mod files, then switching profiles is a matter of changing one junction (aka "link"), the one the game sees as it's "data" folder, to point to one of the profile folders. That operation should be as close to instantaneous as it's possible to get; it certainly won't be noticeable to the user. Since each profile folder would contain the links to actual files, it seems likely to me that the game is going to have to traverse only two links, the one for the "data" directory, and the one for the individual file. In Windows 10, this is still going to be fast enough that people won't notice it.

 

For games that don't use something analogous to Bethesda's "data" folder, it might be more complex, but I can't imagine that it will be necessary to have links much beyond two or three levels even for those.