A lacklusder Creation Kit

[jabeth]

Hello all,

I thought I'd create this discussion to explore pressuring Bethesda into creating a better "creation kit" for our use since it is insidiously installed into the game itself. We ALL PAY THEM for what they've created, Fallout 4; what do they do with all the bankster's paper?!

 

Their (Bethesda's) Creation Kit such as it is, is lacking! It won't load anything into it outside of their game directory. That's seems stupid considering one would want to operate outside of the game's directories while building and/or testing their (or other's) mods.

 

The other problem I have with it is it doesn't actually load any (of the 40+) plugins I have already running in game... why? I have no idea. It can't tell me anything more than "Multiple Masters are loaded...", mind you; it chose them itself, all I did was cause it to be loaded through FileManager's file associations. I didn't do anything except tell it I wanted to open up an .esp with a specific program already associated to the file already successfully in game. It can't! What a PoS! What good is software if it isn't portable? Why would anyone make something so restricted and call it good enough for say competing with (something FREE) xEdit? The programmers (not developers, I'm born when computers are, not after) that made xEdit are more capable than the programmers USED by Bethesda (whomever that actually is) as is evidenced by their respective creations. Didn't we all pay Bethesda (some through Steam) to use their creation (Fallout 4)? You'd think they could or would then do a better job with all that paper revenue they've got to produce something that is actually going to load something one could then form into a decent modification to their game. Why would they make it so difficult? Deliberate or incompetent; you decide.

 

I've had it for two days and I still have yet to get it to even load the game itself for me to start modding... And now xEdit has crashed while in the middle of a mod's change. Bethesda's "Creation Kit" can't open up s#*!; xEdit has crashed and deleting it, reinstalling it, changes nothing about its crashed feature(s)! Argh! This is frustrating! It's almost as if Bethesda such as "they" are don't know how their game is programmed; they subcontracted it or something. There is a gap in knowledge about how the game's variables are used by other variables. That is the most difficult issue facing modders. How do you choose say, certain keywords over others while pushing an armor cheat?

 

Those questions and more never answered by those that created the essence of your questing... what a let down.

Simplicem Veritas, JåB©

[Evangela]

what do they do with all the bankster's paper?!

They release even more Skyrim versions of course.

 

And I've been never able to get the CK to do right with folders outside of the game direction both games. But at least we can move the whole directories off to different drives. Got a little sick of Fallout 4 eating my SSD alive.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Rasikko

[MissingMeshTV]

Not to sound harsh, but the notion of putting “pressure” on Mother Bethesda to produce a "better" CK made me chuckle.

 

Not to sound like a cliché, but they literally give us an editor out of the kindness of their hearts and they likely do spend as few resources as possible on it. They are under no obligation to make it "better" nor even continue to offer if for their games. Is it perfect? Hell no. Giving them constructive feedback on how to improve it is one thing, but thinking you can "pressure" them to do so is a bit far fetched since it is software they really have no real or incentive reason to keep supporting from a business standpoint.

 

It sounds like you are having some of the same frustration a lot of us have had during our first few hours with the CK. But once you spend more time with it, learn the quirks and how to work around them, it does get better.

 

First off, the CK relies on the game engine to do just about everything.The engine is coded to work within a very specific file path, so it only makes since the CK works the same. It’s not the software just being "stupid." Do you really want it pulling files from all over your system? I don’t. Work on enough mods with enough custom assets and you’ll begin to appreciate the file structure it uses when it comes time to pack archives for your mod. There are many ways to tailor your workflow for testing and dev. It just takes a little planning.

 

I’m going to guess the reason you can’t open certain mods and you get a “Multiple Masters” error is that those mods have multiple DLC or other .esm files flagged as masters and you haven’t edited your .ini to allow loading multiple masters. WHY this isn’t set by default IS something that’s pretty stupid but easy to get around.

If you don’t already have a CreationKitCustom.ini, create one. In the file add:

 

[GENERAL]

bAllowMultipleMasterLoads=1

 

That will allow multiple master files to be loaded.

 

You’ll want to add this to the CreationKitCustom.ini rather than the CreationKit.ini to prevent it getting wiped away should the CK get an update and replace the CreationKit.ini file.

[fftfan]

Not to sound harsh, but the notion of putting “pressure” on Mother Bethesda to produce a "better" CK made me chuckle.

 

Not to sound like a cliché, but they literally give us an editor out of the kindness of their hearts and they likely do spend as few resources as possible on it. They are under no obligation to make it "better" nor even continue to offer if for their games. Is it perfect? Hell no. Giving them constructive feedback on how to improve it is one thing, but thinking you can "pressure" them to do so is a bit far fetched since it is software they really have no real or incentive reason to keep supporting from a business standpoint.

 

It sounds like you are having some of the same frustration a lot of us have had during our first few hours with the CK. But once you spend more time with it, learn the quirks and how to work around them, it does get better.

This. Didn't they say that back when Skyrim's CK was released that it was thanks to one dev who volunteered to work on CK on his off time? I can't find source anymore but basically they said it was like the guy took it upon himself alone to make a release CK for players. Reason being is the dev's CK has stuff they can't share stuff like Havok Tools(They paid to use Havok Tools for the game's animation but not to allow everybody to use it for mods and stuff. Remember most companies actively oppose modding in any form so it is likely they specifically forbade this) so for a public release they have to remove all that, and for some things have to make their own DIY implementation.

 

Meaning if not for him there would have possibly been no Skyrim CK at all?

Edited December 27, 2017 by fftfan

[Korodic]

Not to sound harsh, but the notion of putting “pressure” on Mother Bethesda to produce a "better" CK made me chuckle.

 

Not to sound like a cliché, but they literally give us an editor out of the kindness of their hearts and they likely do spend as few resources as possible on it. They are under no obligation to make it "better" nor even continue to offer if for their games. Is it perfect? Hell no. Giving them constructive feedback on how to improve it is one thing, but thinking you can "pressure" them to do so is a bit far fetched since it is software they really have no real or incentive reason to keep supporting from a business standpoint.

 

It sounds like you are having some of the same frustration a lot of us have had during our first few hours with the CK. But once you spend more time with it, learn the quirks and how to work around them, it does get better.

 

First off, the CK relies on the game engine to do just about everything.The engine is coded to work within a very specific file path, so it only makes since the CK works the same. It’s not the software just being "stupid." Do you really want it pulling files from all over your system? I don’t. Work on enough mods with enough custom assets and you’ll begin to appreciate the file structure it uses when it comes time to pack archives for your mod. There are many ways to tailor your workflow for testing and dev. It just takes a little planning.

 

I’m going to guess the reason you can’t open certain mods and you get a “Multiple Masters” error is that those mods have multiple DLC or other .esm files flagged as masters and you haven’t edited your .ini to allow loading multiple masters. WHY this isn’t set by default IS something that’s pretty stupid but easy to get around.

If you don’t already have a CreationKitCustom.ini, create one. In the file add:

 

[GENERAL]

bAllowMultipleMasterLoads=1

 

That will allow multiple master files to be loaded.

 

You’ll want to add this to the CreationKitCustom.ini rather than the CreationKit.ini to prevent it getting wiped away should the CK get an update and replace the CreationKit.ini file.

I wouldnt give them too much credit for generosity anymore considering their new initiative to monetize it.

[MissingMeshTV]

Nope. If there ever was generosity, that ship has sailed. And sunk.

[cypher2012]

Well on a plus note about creation kit, creation kit could be a catalyst for development of a better creation kit.

 

If Bethesda will start making money from mods, it's in their interest to make the tools better.

 

What I would love to see, is a model importer! Or some kind of nif builder!

[jabeth]

I'm new to all this, I just started manipulating their game for my tastes around August. I'm sure as I get to using their program I'll get more proficient at it. When I started "modding", I broke the game so many times it got to the point of when I was loading it, I'd expect it to dump on me; a very sad stretch of time.

 

A nif builder would be nice, NifSkope is a big help for making smallish changes.

 

Other specific programs for manipulating the various formats used when developing a game would be nice to see, other than what is already out there. What I'd like more than anything is for Bethesda to provide a breakdown of their variables used with maybe one layer of attachments shown to jumpstart following the process of adding even the smallest of things into their game. It is a big help to be able to make corrections to their game that are found in play. It always bothered me the Relay Dish didn't actually take a Sensor Module from one when one built it.

 

For instance; I've found one can manipulate both the minimum & maximum gun ranges with an OMOD floated value; it has a category for them. One can also create the same using PERK, MGEF, ENCH, OMOD to get the proper chain of variables in place to make it work of course; the PERK has the category for them both. The first one caused me to have to find a sort of ratio to get even close with say +50% range increase. Using the latter, a perk, the results are much more predictable & stable. That's not the only anomoly using FO4's variables.

 

I'll been building a sort of big cheating mod. I found some people's mods don't work at all or have the exact opposite effect than what they're promoting and that caused me to start looking into what they're doing. Some of these 'cheats' I'm doing can be real short additions... a KYWD, packed into an OMOD, named in the COBJ with a MISC attached if I want to build it somewhere or find it in a leveled list somewhere. The OMOD is where the cheat is of course and I just make it effect (say an) actor's value or a weapon's critical damage, like disarming someone. But, other values cannot be used that simply. To get the change to work in their OMOD variable, one has to attach ENCH, KYWD (for the ench), and sometimes one or two MGEF(s) with either a SPEL or PERK to finish with that actually makes the effect work.

 

Somethings like effecting a weapon or all weapons' critical damage can be done several different ways. Of course I have to be careful about conflicts. I've had some disturbing effects in game because of a magic effect's flag. One can attach to a weapon, critical damage multiplier increases through the abovementioned former method; KYWD -> OMOD -> COBJ. One can attach to all weapons the same effective increase through their armor with the abovementioned latter method that adds the ENCH, MGEF & PERK.

 

I found AVIF #312 is the weapon shooting speed multiplier and one can change it directly OOOORRRR one could find by accident that their OMOD variable already contains a category from floating in a value for doing that very thing to a specific weapon and not to all of them as the former effect would do. You can make just about any weapon automatic with an OMOD's bool setting using one of two KYWDs; 'IsAutomatic' or 'HasRepeatableSingleShot'. What I can't figure out is why two of them? They both appear to do the samething on different weapons (obvious by their names) but cheating just one of them onto all weapons caused the same effect as the game's version using the other keyword...

 

I just when through the variables looking for the various attachments for making the perks, penetrator, blitz & ricochet work in game. Those three aren't like other perks generally. I don't know why, the information deadends at a certain point. Other perks I've recreated or overwrote but those three I cannot find their attachments in game. So getting a little explanation about the variables used and maybe one level of their joined variable(s) would be a great help. That's the pressure I want to exert.

[Evangela]

 

Not to sound harsh, but the notion of putting “pressure” on Mother Bethesda to produce a "better" CK made me chuckle.

 

Not to sound like a cliché, but they literally give us an editor out of the kindness of their hearts and they likely do spend as few resources as possible on it. They are under no obligation to make it "better" nor even continue to offer if for their games. Is it perfect? Hell no. Giving them constructive feedback on how to improve it is one thing, but thinking you can "pressure" them to do so is a bit far fetched since it is software they really have no real or incentive reason to keep supporting from a business standpoint.

 

It sounds like you are having some of the same frustration a lot of us have had during our first few hours with the CK. But once you spend more time with it, learn the quirks and how to work around them, it does get better.

This. Didn't they say that back when Skyrim's CK was released that it was thanks to one dev who volunteered to work on CK on his off time? I can't find source anymore but basically they said it was like the guy took it upon himself alone to make a release CK for players. Reason being is the dev's CK has stuff they can't share stuff like Havok Tools(They paid to use Havok Tools for the game's animation but not to allow everybody to use it for mods and stuff. Remember most companies actively oppose modding in any form so it is likely they specifically forbade this) so for a public release they have to remove all that, and for some things have to make their own DIY implementation.

 

Meaning if not for him there would have possibly been no Skyrim CK at all?

 

It was already confirmed by a beth dev(who now works at ubisoft, and I'm not going to "name drop" him either) that the CK we're using, is the same tool they used. I'm not going to dig through the old forums to find it. When the question kept being raised due to the fact that the CK was riddled with tons of bugs(most of which are still unaddressed to this day), he pretty much put an end to all the conspiracy.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Rasikko