Failure in Games and Quests

[jbranin]

I do wish that our actions would have a more distinct impact on the game, with some resulting in game changing consequences. As some stated earlier, it would add to the game if we were to get booted from the thieves guild after committing a senseless murder. Although, I'd probably go back to a previous save anyways.

[GeeZee]

And there weren't even any consequences for me. None.

 

I remember one of the first reviews of Skyrim (the very same that said it's the most MAJESTIC RPG ever, whatever the hell it meant ;D ) saying that it's RPG for people who don't like RPG.

 

The next step is, what, games for people who don't like games? It's already halfway there, seeing as we get more of those "interactive movies", where you already steamroll through anything hand-helded throughout the whole game. I don't even understand why is that steamrolling so important for people. It kills all the fun in the game.

 

I remember my experience with FWE-modded Fallout 3, which I never played Vanilla (after Oblivion, I knew better). It couldn't fix Emil's horrid writing, but by that time I got gameplay-wise the best survival experience I've ever had in a computer game ever. In early levels, I was constantly harried, barely breathing and constantly crippled, and even on 30 level instead of being the superhero which kills everything around him without a scratch, I've been outnumbered, outgunned and outmatched so many times, that in Broken Steel I had to cower and take cover all the time, out of Stimpaks and ammo halfway to Air Force Base. And that was terrific.

 

Back to consequences, the aforementioned lowest common denominator hates it. Because that's totally realistic and immersive, right? So instead of multiple solutions, C&C we actually got is "do a quest and get a reward or don't do a quest and get no reward! So many choices" And you are invited to join Companions' Circle after 2 quests and you can be a savior of the universe and guild master of everything and nobody will care! :tongue:

 

P.S.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_2

 

Have faith - the Fallout's predecessor is back and kicking for more ambitious RPG players :yes:

[yota71]

You have taken me back a lot of memory LOL

 

Remembering back che Arena days when because of my lateness the main quest is gone for good, in arena there was a particulary point that you have to meet a certain character at a certain hour, during this moment i loose my way to reaching that place (don't remember what place) and i had collected two hour of delay and the NPC is gone for godd with all my (50+ hour game) i remember that i become mad on this, but after 15 days (if i recall correctly) i had beginned a new game and at least after 100+ hour of game , i had finished Arena, i will ever remember that moment LOL

[BlackCompany]

I do wish that our actions would have a more distinct impact on the game, with some resulting in game changing consequences. As some stated earlier, it would add to the game if we were to get booted from the thieves guild after committing a senseless murder. Although, I'd probably go back to a previous save anyways.

 

But would you still go back to a previous save, if you could earn your way back in? Maybe have to pull off a difficult heist, or a special job? Or even just steal so much gold worth of stuff, without ever getting caught, and you can earn your way back. Maybe pay the blood price in gold for the victim, and you get back in, too. Then a reload would not be needed, you learn from your mistake and pay for it and move on.

 

And as for Wasteland 2, I kicked in $15. Ain't much, but its something, and I hear the Kickstarter is doing well.

 

Also working on mods for Skyrim that make NPC's deadly. They get more perks, can stagger you when they catch you not blocking, will bash and block much more intelligently, and - this is key - will Bash far, far more often. Max percent chance of an NPC bashing in vanilla is about 20 - 30%. In my game - all tests good so far - its around 95% by default, and combat style tweaks make it more likely still that they will use it when you are blocking.

 

My level 40 Dragonscale-armored Nord warrior got the crap kicked out of him not long ago by a Bandit Marauder with a sword and shield. No more waiting behind your shield, biding your time for openings. NPC's know how to handle that, now. And to top it off, you have between a 5% - 15% chance of getting one of several minor "wounds" from combat. These are diseases that can be cured using potions, a visit to shrine, or by crafting bandages using Linen/Leather, healing potions for salve and leather strips (to tie the bandage in place) but they only work outside of combat.

 

Thanks for posting here. I like these thought-provoking discussions and would love to see more of them here.

[BlackCompany]

I do wish that our actions would have a more distinct impact on the game, with some resulting in game changing consequences. As some stated earlier, it would add to the game if we were to get booted from the thieves guild after committing a senseless murder. Although, I'd probably go back to a previous save anyways.

 

But would you still go back to a previous save, if you could earn your way back in? Maybe have to pull off a difficult heist, or a special job? Or even just steal so much gold worth of stuff, without ever getting caught, and you can earn your way back. Maybe pay the blood price in gold for the victim, and you get back in, too. Then a reload would not be needed, you learn from your mistake and pay for it and move on.

 

And as for Wasteland 2, I kicked in $15. Ain't much, but its something, and I hear the Kickstarter is doing well.

 

Also working on mods for Skyrim that make NPC's deadly. They get more perks, can stagger you when they catch you not blocking, will bash and block much more intelligently, and - this is key - will Bash far, far more often. Max percent chance of an NPC bashing in vanilla is about 20 - 30%. In my game - all tests good so far - its around 95% by default, and combat style tweaks make it more likely still that they will use it when you are blocking.

 

My level 40 Dragonscale-armored Nord warrior got the crap kicked out of him not long ago by a Bandit Marauder with a sword and shield. No more waiting behind your shield, biding your time for openings. NPC's know how to handle that, now. And to top it off, you have between a 5% - 15% chance of getting one of several minor "wounds" from combat. These are diseases that can be cured using potions, a visit to shrine, or by crafting bandages using Linen/Leather, healing potions for salve and leather strips (to tie the bandage in place) but they only work outside of combat.

 

Thanks for posting here. I like these thought-provoking discussions and would love to see more of them here.

[GeeZee]

Also working on mods for Skyrim that make NPC's deadly. They get more perks, can stagger you when they catch you not blocking, will bash and block much more intelligently, and - this is key - will Bash far, far more often. Max percent chance of an NPC bashing in vanilla is about 20 - 30%. In my game - all tests good so far - its around 95% by default, and combat style tweaks make it more likely still that they will use it when you are blocking.

 

My level 40 Dragonscale-armored Nord warrior got the crap kicked out of him not long ago by a Bandit Marauder with a sword and shield. No more waiting behind your shield, biding your time for openings. NPC's know how to handle that, now. And to top it off, you have between a 5% - 15% chance of getting one of several minor "wounds" from combat. These are diseases that can be cured using potions, a visit to shrine, or by crafting bandages using Linen/Leather, healing potions for salve and leather strips (to tie the bandage in place) but they only work outside of combat.

 

Thanks for posting here. I like these thought-provoking discussions and would love to see more of them here.

 

Sounds wonderful, can't wait. Any chance you could upload the current version of the mod somewhere, as an open beta? :D

 

BTW, do you have any idea how to lower armor cap from that 80% to around 50%? I am looking for some way for Skyrim to be challenging even when I have Daedric armor and upgraded weapons.

 

I'll also have to do a mod for myself that balances combat and crafting perk bonuses from "twice as good" to half the effect.

[BlackCompany]

I shall endeavor to get these uploaded today around about 4 - 5pm ET. If not, they will be up as an open Beta test by tomorrow around 12n ET.

 

Also forgot to mention:

 

-I lowered the max armor rating to 70 from 80 in my Tweaks. Was already considering lowering it more, though, since I agree that, at higher levels, you actually have so much armor you can just stand in the path of oncoming Warhammer blows and not flinch. Think I will go ahead and accommodate the 50 request before release.

 

-Also, for each Perk taken in my Smithing tree, I lower the speed of smithing skill increases 5%. When you take Arcane Smith or Advanced Armors, it goes down another 10%. Taking every perk in the tree can slow down smithing development by as much as 50% or so (forget the exact amount, its a lot). Reasoning: The more you know of something, the harder you have to work to find new knowledge. The better you are at something, the harder you have to try to get better still. I have a lot more to learn about kung fu, for instance, and far more room for improvement, than Bruce Lee did during his peak, for instance.

 

I will see about getting this whole mod pack up. My loot mod is ready to go, too....but it changes a couple of things beyond just loot (like adding the Silver Sword script to Dawnbreaker) so load order is key there for many people. But it makes loot rare. And I mean rare. Bandit camps will sometimes yield 30 total gold, on a good day, and most NPC's - bandits, et al - have a couple of gold if you're lucky, for realism. Loot is semi-regional and class/faction based as well. Will see about posting this soon. The mods are done, and even tested for many hours now. Just like to be sure before releasing.

[Lord Garon]

Good topic. I've always felt that a good game can approach the immersion level of a book. The RPG genre doesn't appeal to the instant gratification of, say, the FPS games where the fighting itself is the point. A book lets you experience the entire world of the author, as does a good RPG. I remember the Ultima games and having to change game play paradigms half-way through the series in order to succeed. Origin forced me into their desired "worlds".

 

From Morrowind to Oblivion to Skyrim, Bethesda has increasingly appealed to the instant gratification crowd (which I consider the lowest common denominator) which far outnumber the dedicated RPG fans. The current skill perks and exploits let power gamers max out their fighting ability and the horribly unbalanced boss fights let them kick ass. Bethesda has tried, I think, to maintain a storyline and world for the RPG fans. But they are changing their world to suit a particular gaming style, rather than bringing the gamer into their own world. Skyrim has lost something because of it. I'm sure its due to simple numbers and profit margins, but its kinda sad to see such potential in technology (their game engine) and creative writing go down this path.

 

So, what to do? I tried role playing Skyrim. Its not that fun in vanilla. I had a zillion uncompleted quests because I couldn't take out the bosses in most locations. If you follow the linear game line, your very first quest winds up putting you against a Deathlord. Hard to beat at level 4. I took work from the Whiterun steward and got my rear handed to me by an Ork bandit chief. So, I embarked on an exploration of Skyrim. Kudos to Bethesda; what a place. What potential. I leveled up "naturally" as I used skills wandering around, maybe with an emphasis on alchemy to keep me alive. I used weapons when appropriate (bows, melee weapons, magic), sneaked around, smithed when I could, read books, cooked meals, etc, etc. Now leveled enemies just 1shot me. So I was forced to leave my RPG world and specialize in something. I was forced into a lower common denominator mode just to experience the author's world.

 

Specialization is fine, but it is necessarily limiting; you can't specialize in everything. I stumbled upon a follower by choosing the wrong option in a dialog (what is up with the mouse/KB option selections?) and we were able to get a lot farther than me on my own. But follower pathing is terrible, their AI cannot sneak/hide, they don't die, and they seem capable of carrying anything. My archer wound up breaking immersion more than helping it; thanks anyways, dude, see you in Riverwood.

 

This is getting too long... There needs to be an autosave/resurrect option with only a game exit save option. If you die, you are brought back somewhere random with no gear and lowered skill/perks. Skills need more dependencies on use; if you power max smithing, armor/weapon effectiveness is more dependent upon use (weapon or armor skills) than simply having it. Balance needs tweaking; one shot capable enemies don't allow you to progress in fighting skills without resorting to more power gaming techniques. Let me, at least, determine the strength of a bandit, not have him/her kill me instantly. Figuring stuff out, even how to fight a particular enemy, is what its all about. Scale the difficulty of locations so that the boss is not a quantum leap above the trash; make it more difficult as you get closer, don't jump from a dragur to a deathlord all at once. Give the RPG players a chance to complete the early quests, at least, or enable the quest lines based upon particular skill levels.

 

Difficulty is fine, I like it. Impossibility is frustrating. Note that my game machine is an old Windows XP Athalon computer. It runs Skyrim fine in Win98 compatibility mode (some threading issue: Skyrim crashes constantly without compatibility mode enabled). There is a LOT of room with the new game engine for AI improvement; the world itself is great. Match the gameplay to the environment and Skyrim WILL be that ultimate game.