Combat Balance

[Malchus]

All,

 

This has probably been brough up before, and perhaps belongs in the "Modding" section, but I'm new, so I get some misplaced posts at no charge right?

 

Disclaimer: This post is intended to stimulate discussion and ideas/opinions, not push anyone to "Make That." I may work on a mod that does some of this, but it would be alot of work.

 

Moving right along...funny, cause I type to the right.

 

I feel, and wonder if you feel, that Oblivion's combat, and in some part leveling, system, even modified by OOO or deadly reflex mod is still, at best, horrid.

I don't know this forum's knowledge average base, and since Almighty Google exists, I won't dumb this down any.

 

Swords, Battle-Axes, Bows, Armor ect, are HARD to make, I know first hand. Making quality ones is even harder. Given the setting of Cyrodill, swordsmiths would be a large part of the economy of any city, much like car or technology dealers today. Given the amount of revenue coming through these stores, they would strive to produce the best products. Ergo, the high quality weapons/armor, Ebony, Glass, Elven etc. should be found in city dealerships, and cost as much as a small car, not on random baddies. Bandits would have steel and iron, and some highwaymen might be able to procure some higher end weaponry, but that would be rare. I exluded Deadric, because it comes from...other...places.

In summation, high end loot, should be for sale, not for random spawn in a dungeon.

 

Weapons hurt things. Just in case that wasn't clear, Weapons hurt things, alot. If you are wearing a robe, and some nastyman hits you center mass with even a rusty iron battle axe, you will DIE in almost all occasions. Think back to if you ever played Oblivion Vanilla, that never happened. So, the damage system in Oblivion is completely wrong. Battle Axes, Long Swords etc. should be an almost one shot kill on un-armored opponents every time, dependant on skill level in blade, I am assuming 65+

So, if you died everytime some one attacked you, that would be no fun, which is why armor exists. I don't know if any of you have ever taken a sword to armor, but I have, and I can tell you that steel armor will block all of the damage done to it by a slash, but it will wear out quickly if hit repeatedly. If it gets hit by a mace or battle axe, it will surely fail within 5 hits.

 

So, what I think is this: Most of the armors and weapons in Oblivion need to be re-evaluated, but to what? Would you, as games, like a system that works like I described above? Did I misunderstand something about Cyrodillic socialogy? Should steel be the most powerful blade type in the game?

 

Please, respond and give me your thoughts, sorry if this is in the wrong area.

 

-Malchus

[Lainge]

I understand where your coming from, but this is a game we're talking about. And one-hit kills all the timewould make the game less fun not more.

[Vagrant0]

Three problems.

 

One, it's a game, although people may like some realism, when the best they have to look forward to is steel armor, things get boring rather quickly. This might have been tolerable in Morrowind, where clothing allowed "some" protection, but that isn't the case. Most people aren't going to wander around naked, for a good, long time, until they save up the 30k needed for a piece of steel armor. And any mod which adds new armor (like what 99.9% of the people who have modded games are using) would screw up any system you hoped to achieve.

 

Two, it's a game. The same systems that work in reality aren't designed into the game because those systems would generally suck for almost everyone. The game is designed around few, long encounters, where you and whatever else take turns blocking and attacking. The skills are setup around this, the AI is setup around this, staged ingame fights are setup around this, magicka is setup around this. Nobody would want to play a game where they die 5 minutes into the game because of a rat, zombie, or cultist decided to attack them before they found a shield or learned to fight. Few people would be entertained for long by a game where they can just run up to almost everyone, and kill them with a single hit. For those who have already played through the main quest a few times, and gone on more town rampages than they can count, almost all that remains fun about the game is in fighting those battles, and facing harder/different opponents thanks to mods.

 

Three. To create a system like this, you would have to spend a rediculous amount of time changing damn near everything about the game just to maybe have something which will probably only be good at certain level ranges (since the player always gains more health, so what was 1 hit at level 1, could be 6 or 7 by level 10). And unfortunately, there isn't any good way to get around this little hard coded bit since damage for the player works on the same settings as damage from an actor. So if they ever got a hold of that battleaxe that kills them in 1 hit, they would likely be able to kill everyone else with 1 hit from that axe. In addition to this fundimental flaw, any mod which adds new NPCs, creatures, items wouldn't end up working with your system, so would only serve to cause more problems. Additionally, you would have to remove ALL magic since whatever methods which were in use by your system, would likely make certain aspects of magic more powerful than anything else (again, working both for and against the benefit of the player).

 

Within Oblivion, such a system just isn't practical, even once you've planned around all the above conditions, because the game is open ended, you don't always know where things are coming from, and in many cases, there is no option of running away, or just not going into that cave. There would also probably be a significant demand for companions within that system, since you are often attacked by more than one foe at a time.

 

Really, these sorts of "it has to be realistic" kinda ideas went out the window with some of the old MMORPGs like UO and EQ (the first one) where damn near all you were was what you were wearing. This meant a royal pain in the ass before you aquired those things, and a royal pain in the ass afterward when you went against anything more dangerous than a hamster (and even then there are those that could tear you limb from limb). Even D&D has been moving away from a kit based setup to a feat and planning based system.

 

 

As for explaining the availability of all this armor, I challenge you to explain how any armor or weapons are possible if there isn't any iron mines, or places in the world where people could smelt it. Or a wizard did it.

[madman132]

Any Bandit could kill me. A Bowman's Arrow could find my Eye. There i am, wandering around, watching at the beautiful Landscape. And then im dead without even knowing what hit me.

 

Well, that is realistic, as someting like that could happen in a World where an endless amount of Bandits run around. They would conceal themselves rather than standing around.

 

Well, its realistic, but it would suck.

 

Dropping dead for no Reason isnt Fun.

 

You did work in a Forge? I did a little hammering myself and this is hard Work, not suitable for everyone =)

 

It would be realistic if Weapons could get Cracks that cant be fixed. Weapons can "break" to a point where they cannot be fixed. This can even happen to a new Weapon.

 

Realistic, but not good. Imagine your Umbra gets a Crack at the upper Edge. Will break after one or two more strikes, cant be fixed. Sucks :/

 

 

If you are an Novice Armorer, you would break nearly every Weapon when trying to repair it.

Just go away realism.

 

Ah yes. Of course you would need a Fire and a good big Anvil. And a good amount of time =)

 

But at least, your Repair Hammers wont break that easily. I forged for about a Month and broke two Hammers.

 

Well, your Umbra is gone but you still have your Repair Hammers :D

 

 

 

 

We play a game because we *dont* want realism. At Least to an Extend. We do want green Gras, rolling Hills, medieval Cities and nice Lakes. Thats it. I like to play in a Magical World with Elves, Monsters and Demons. I like fighting undead. I like fighting, even when i cant kill my Oppenent with one normal strike. He cant kill me with one hit either.

Thats not realistic, but i like it anyway =)

[dra6o0n]

A good suggestion to all realism idealist out there, think about your audience. A Chef with a specific taste won't gain as much customer than a Chef with experience in all kinds of food.

[Vagrant0]

Personally, I think the set of combat settings I've been using for a few years now are about as close as you can get without major changes to the game. It isn't any silly, 1 hit and you die, kinda thing, but instead a 5 or 6 good clean hits and you're dead, or severely wounded kinda thing.

 

The idea isn't to have some supreme realism, but find a good happy medium. Look at any shooter game, as realistic as they get, there are few that have it where one shot anywhere leaves you helpless and in pain (or dead) as it would in reality. Instead, most these games allow for several hits to the body, or limbs before the player dies (head shots can still be fatal, but are made rare and hard to do). The same idea applies here. Allow combat to still be challenging, and to make encounters more of a threat, but still make them possible. Afterall, a fight where you're hacking away at a rat (or anything else) for 5 minutes isn't any more fun than a fight where you either kill everything in 1-2 hits, or you die in 1-2 hits.

[tungol]

Absolute realism is probably not the best idea. For one thing, there are significant aspects you can't duplicate. How often do people complain about getting hit and not knowing where it's coming from? Especially if it's an arrow. (NPC's on the other hand zoom right in on you when you shoot them.) A lack of realism in some ways makes up for a lack in other ways. In real life, if an arrow goes whizzing by your head, you drop, roll, and take cover until you figure out where the bowman is. In the game, you don't even know it until it hits you, and then your evasive options are very limited.

 

On the other hand, I think you could make the game more realistic in many ways and make it a more subtle game. Suppose in combat successful hits or dodging or blocking gave you a cumulative bonus, to the point that we imagine your opponent exposes himself and you can make a critical strike at that moment. (Granted, everything I know about swordfighting I learned from The Princess Bride...) Rather than the standard block/attack dynamics where you're just trading blows, you would be working your opponent to create an opening. Then when you saw it, you'd do massive damage if you hit it. Of course, your opponent could be doing the same to you, so you'd be trying to keep him from creating an opening; and sometimes that would mean retreat.

 

Or suppose something simple, like assigning hit location effects. Or variable damage/armor types (i.e. blunt, piercing, slashing). Those would significantly change the gameplay (though you'd have to adjust most encounters to match) and the tone. Minor magic enchantments would be significant, battles would last longer without being boring, and thus stuff like corrode armor effects would have a point for the PC (from what I can see, they only exist so the NPC can annoy the PC without actually having a chance to defeat him.)

 

But how to do it is the problem. Still, people have managed some amazing things with the CS by finding workarounds.

[Malchus]

Thanks for your input all, just a few clarifiers:

 

 

First, I want to emphasize that in a system I would idealize, armor and blocking would be more effective. Almost entirely negating attacks, based on your block skill, just like blocking an actual attack would. More armor sets would add up to the 85 max when you have a relatively high skill in them, to add that needed protection.

 

I also understand that Oblivion IS a game, so I would still see the need for some unrealistic elements. Just wondered if anyone would be inerested in something like this.

 

Once again, thanks for all your help!

 

-Malchus