LE An All New Civil War Quest Chain

[songofstars]

I have been known to get super carried away on many an occasion, and I'm probably absolutely crazy for suggesting this but...I would love to see a completely redone Civil War that replaces the old quest chain (or utterly ignores it and you never do it in favor of the new one...). The current one is so underwhelming and full of holes. I know this would be a lot of work, but it would be really cool to have a quest line that...

 

A) Acknowledges you're the Dragonborn if you've completed Dragon Uprising (or The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller?). You are a HUGE asset to whatever side you're on, and I know Ulfric at least fails to acknowledge this during the Civil War chain. You might as well be random solider #7 who gets promoted for acts of valor AKA being the PC. What about being the epic Dragonborn who has the use of the Thu'um? Why does no one ask you if you could persuade a dragon or two to help your cause?

 

B) Adds recognition of key world events, such as the Emperor being murdered if you so happen to murder him before or during the Civil War quest line. No one but the guards with their random dialogues seem to know the Emperor was killed... Tullius keeps fighting bravely on as though his boss is still calling the shots, and Ulfric has no input. Or how if you haven't completed the main quest, the possibility of dragon attacks don't seem to figure in their battle plans at all.

 

C) Opens up multiple tactics of engagement and unique special ops missions.

1: For establishing engagement, multiple phases or alternate strategies could be implemented. Siege Phase could be a nice start to the battle, softening up a fort before sending in the troops. You could have multiple unit types, such as front lines for melee focused characters, a support unit for healers or summoners, and a ranged/suppression unit for archers or mages (although logistically that might be difficult since friendly fire is a thing), effectively allowing the Dragonborn to participate as much or as little as s/he wants.

2: It would be interesting to be able to engage in special ops missions, including sabotage, infiltration, and/or assassination (open to all but catering to thief/assassin type characters) that allow you to sabotage enemy forts, reducing the number of troops they have in the main battle, or assassinate garrison commanders, effectually ending a battle before it begins, or infiltrating towns and/or keeps and planting false evidence against key officials and/or spreading false information through high speechcraft checks that will ultimately lead to a change of allegiance by the people as they oust the "traitor" themselves.

3: Missions could also include a nice immersion element to set faction influence in enemy and ally strongholds alike that you can increase in your favor.

 

D) Makes use of bandit forts, allowing them to be cleared out and claimed for your faction, possibly including a follow-up event where you must defend the fort from an attack from the opposing faction (kudos to EpicCrab for this idea with this awesome Tactical Valtheim mod). A courier could be charged with delivering you a note from your faction leader, informing you that scouts have spotted an enemy unit approaching x-fort and urging you to head there immediately to assist in it's defense. The battle would obviously not start until you arrived.

 

E) Incorporates a non-linear path of progression, introducing multiple progression phases. Why are we fort-hopping when we have Stormcloak and Imperial camps spread throughout the whole of Skyrim? Can we not deploy forces to engage in multiple battles simultaneously? I know the Dragonborn is the center of the universe, but it feels a bit awkward that every plan of action requires Galmar/Rikke and the Dragonborn to be present. Since we are already expanding the Civil War with additional missions, refining the Holds progression system would balance out the length of the quest line.

Phase One: Securing the Homefront. You must secure your faction's territories, starting with your capital then your major and minor hold. You must always secure the capital, removing any men pocketed in your territory (Haafinger and Eastmarch). Then you need to secure the major and minor holds. Galmar/Rikke will be in charge of the minor hold where Ulfric/Tullius will be in charge of the major. You may choose where you want to go, or allow yourself to be assigned, and then strategize with your field commander about how you will accomplish your task. When you complete your assigned hold (via battle or special ops), the other will automatically complete as well.

Phase Two: Controlling the Heart. You must take Whiterun by whatever means necessary - force, persuasion, subterfuge - and secure your position. If you are imperial, you will need to start with securing Roriksted and Falkreath Hold then take Whiterun. If you are Stormcloak, you go in the reverse order. Again, Roriksted and Falkreath are split into two separate "fronts" while Whiterun will always be something the player must do.

Phase Three: Tightening the Noose: You must control the last major and minor hold, again split into two fronts.

Phase Four: Unification/Liberation of Skyrim. The final assault on the enemy capital. I feel, at this point, alternate methods of progression should be available. It makes no sense for the final confrontation to end in bloodshed. Why? At this point, Tullius or Ulfric has to know it's over... They've lost every foothold they had in the 9 holds. Fighting will only endanger the lives of those living in their city, and neither is that cold-blooded nor the type of man to throw away lives needlessly.

 

Note that each Phase would be preceded by an "operations" period that would allow you to conduct as many missions that you wanted to (and as were available) in every single hold, including special ops missions and bandit fort reclamations, that would attribute to the ease of success during the coming Phases. For example, if you are a Stormcloak and take Valtheim before initiating Phase Two, you will have more soldiers at your disposal should you choose combat as your method of taking Whiterun Hold.

 

F) Adds choice and consequence. For example, the ability to persuade Jarl Balgruuf to join the Stormcloaks (maybe through speechcraft, maybe through a completion of a quest(s) that draws town support)! And the reactions of the citizens depending on how the situation plays out (if you deposed Balgruuf or not). I agree with another poster who said it's weird no one seems to have a reaction to your choices. (Adrienne is like, "Yeah it's weird dad's not steward anymore but I mean otherwise it's all good." I was like, "Oh phew, I thought you would hate me! ...Wait...why ARE you so cool with this?")

 

 

Additional Thoughts:

 

-I think Season Unending should still be a viable alternative to completing the Civil War for the purposes of accomplishing the main quest. It's a nice little exchange that adds a lot of character to the situation should the Civil War still be on.

 

-A follow-up quest event to attend the moot would be cool. If the Imperials win, an election of Elisif or possibly another Jarl (such as Balgruuf if you allowed him to side with the Imperials or could not persuade him to do otherwise) as High King/Queen would take place. Or if the Stormcloaks win, you would instead see Ulfric elected as High King, which could also change Windhelm to be the "seat of the High King". Maybe you want to go so far as to add the option to elect the Dragonborn, though there is a very cool mod out that allows for that already.

 

-Sabotage missions could employ the use of the Diplomatic Immunity disguise idea. You need an Imperial or Stormcloak uniform to sneak into a base undetected, maybe need to be an Imperial or a Nord to enter specific restricted areas.

 

-Ulfric should be on the battlefield. I find it really strange that he is a solider in the Great War, both warrior and commander when he retakes Markarth, and is in the field when he gets ambushed and taken to Helgen...yet when it comes to the Civil War, he sits on his throne passing out orders. I can see Tullius being the top-dog of order giving, as the Imperial Army has a strict military hierarchy, but Ulfric? Fierce Nord warrior? He's going to sit on his butt all day? Doesn't make sense to me. He should be out there at least SOME of the time, more than just for the taking of Solitude. If the progression system is altered, having Ulfric, Galmar, and possibly Ralof (after being promoted) as field commanders would be ideal. Who you report to depends on the battle you plan to participate in. Or he participates up until the taking of Whiterun, where Ulfric then appoints Galmar and Ralof as his field commanders and orchestrates things from Whiterun until it's time to take Solitude.

 

-Compatibility with mods like "Immersive Patrols" and "Warzones" would give the player the option to make their Civil War experience even bigger.

 

-It could be interesting to add a success system based on influence and unit deployment, requiring the player to gain a certain amount of influence and/or perform a unit balancing act in order to ensure success. For example, say you are an Imperial trying to take Winterhold and the unit strength of Kastav's defenses are 100, and your deployed forces have a unit strength of 40 (you are in the middle of a snowy tundra where supply lines move slowly and the distance between Imperial controlled territory is great). You would want to perform some missions during the Operations period that would even the odds. That could include spreading propoganda in Winterhold's city (that may be worth 5 units), sabotaging Fort Kastav's defenses (15 units), disrupting a supply line (10 units), misdirection via planting a false report of an Imperial patrol sighting that would cause a unit to be deployed (another 10 units). Suddenly your odds are a bit better: 40 vs 60. Are you a Thane of that hold, or have you completed quests there? Your influence goes up, increasing support for your cause by removing units from the enemy pool and adding those units to your own pool (insurgency!). If you also managed to reclaim a nearby ruin or camp (not sure what bandit camps might be nearby Winterhold), you add another 10-20 units (depending on the size of the camp) that you have access to. Now your forces are, quite possibly, even or leading. The more you can balance or overcome the unit strength, the fewer losses you incur, increasing your strength in that hold and the units available for further Phases. Every hold that is secured will need a number of units to garrison it to replace the lost defenders, and that should be non-negotiable, meaning whatever is left is what you get to take to the next battle.

 

-I am probably insane for even suggesting all of this, and most assuredly got carried away... >_> Far, far away...

 

 

 

Obviously this is an ambitious idea, and probably not very realistic. I've seen modders who have done incredible things to the game, things I would never have dreamed were possible, so some of these things might not be too far left of impossible? Or maybe they are! I'm not sure if you could even create an alternate Civil War quest line... But I thought it was a cool concept so I decided to just send it out into the ether!

[simtam]

Let's be realistic - all of the above are trivial modifications to the Open Civil War ;-)

 

But let's focus on the ability to persuade Jarl Balgruuf to join the Stormcloaks. Cause that's what I'm on these days.

 

If Balgruuf joins SC, who will be his housecarl? And if Imperials retake Whiterun by force (any civil war overhaul like mod may have that possibility), who's gonna be the jarl / housecarl on the imperial side?

 

The UESP page for http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Olfina_Gray-Mane says

 

Peculiarly for a housecarl, she isn't marked as essential and can be killed at any time. If she is killed while she is housecarl, Irileth, Balgruuf's housecarl, will return from exile and resume functioning as housecarl in Olfina's place. She will continue to offer the same dialogue as if Jarl Balgruuf still controlled Whiterun.

 

Interestingly, http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Avulstein_Gray-Mane

 

Avulstein is in the housecarl faction and has an unused package to exile him to Viola Giordano's House in Windhelm, indicating that he was once intended to serve as Vignar's housecarl instead of his sister Olfina.

Avulstein is flagged as essential, so that corroborates that.

[songofstars]

Okay, I had to look up Open Civil War. I had noooo idea something like that already existed! This is awesome. >_< I can't wait to play with this! I swear, I don't know how I miss things like this. Aaahh, I feel silly... Well not that you would WANT to add anything to it, but that you say "trivial additions" makes me so happy. Man, I am so excited, and I will do all I can to help you persuade Balgruuf! So let's see...

 

Hmmm, is it not possible to have Irileth remain his housecarl? And will Avenicci remain steward? Both seem loyal to Balgruuf more than either side; Avenicci recognizes the possibility he might side with Ulfric and seems to accept this, and Irileth is his battle-buddy! Olfina seems like such a random choice for the game to make... I hate the thought of her dying, too, considering her relationship with Jon. D: Avulstein does make more sense, though it would be weird for him to show up to be a housecarl when he is supposed to be laying low with his brother.

 

If it's not possible to keep it straight, maybe it would make sense to add the option to dismiss Olfina as housecarl so that Irileth will return to her post. Perhaps Jon offers a quest out of concern for his secret love, since the war is still on and all, and the Dragonborn has been seen going in and out of Dragonsreach. We can bring proof of their relationship to the Jarl, who I think will understand and sympathize with these two crazy kids having to hide their relationship due to their families, and will dismiss her honorably from his service. I don't know, it's just a thought.