Should I go Legion or Stormcloaks?

[PsxMeUP]

I think this might help you if you're an american or European who knows a little about american politics:

Democrat - Imperials (my personal choice)

Republican - Stormcloaks

 

I think today this is more accurate:

 

Democrats/Republicans: Imperials

Libertarians: Stormcloaks

[Dustylion]

I think this might help you if you're an american or European who knows a little about american politics:

Democrat - Imperials (my personal choice)

Republican - Stormcloaks

 

I think today this is more accurate:

 

Democrats/Republicans: Imperials

Libertarians: Stormcloaks

[kevkiev]

Hmmmn...

 

I had a tough time deciding which way to go, but ended up swearing the Legion oath which was enough to get the "Failed" message regarding the Join the Stormcloaks quest. But I still haven't given the Jagged Crown to General Tullius, so I'm not so sure it's too late to join the Stormcloaks after all.

 

Especially as a Wood Elf, I don't like the racist attitude that seems held by the Stormcloaks and, overall and for lack of better phrasing, a lot of the Stormcloak diehards I've run into seem like dicks compared to the Legion supporters I've met (aside from the Thalmor, though I don't really see them as Legion supporters per se). However, my dislike/hatred for the Thalmor is becoming overwhelming and I'm REALLY uncomfortable being on their side. The covert hit squads they send after me sometimes doesn't help my attitude. There seems to be a lot of concern among some of the NPC's that Ulfric Stormcloak has his own agenda driving the rebellion, but I think that can be said for the Thalmor too. I don't trust those guys one bit. And they seem more racist than the Stormcloaks. That they're essentially planning to end the world, as Kohdi talks about above, wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

Ideally, I'd like to be able to join the Legion and spearhead a clandestine operation to break the treaty and betray the Thalmor. Dunno how realistic that would be. I think you'd need some surprise and overwhelming and impeccably coordinated offensive, ala' the Corleones wiping out the heads of the other mob families in the first Godfather movie, though on a much larger scale.

 

edit: this blog is kinda interesting:

 

Why You Should Become An Imperial, Not A Stormcloak

 

December 24, 2011 by ablestmage

 

In the game Skyrim, you’re given the option to either side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks. Skyrim is one province of the continent of Tamriel, on planet Nirn, upon which the Elder Scrolls games are based. The Stormcloaks are “true” Nords of the Skyrim region who wish to freely worship Talos, and hold this as their primary reason for fighting the Imperials. The Imperials are a kind of police that enforce the laws of the Cyrodiil, of which Skyrim is one part. The Imperials were at war with the Elves at one point, and as a concession in a treaty for peace, decided to permit the Thalmor (a religious clan of Elves) to police Skyrim in search of Talos-worshippers in what amounts to a ban on Talos worship. The Imperials never or rarely enforce the ban, and desire free Talos worship as much, if not more, as do the Stormcloaks. The Thalmor enforce the ban because they believe Talos is not a god, and Talos-worship amounts to idolatry of a man, since they assert a man cannot become a god. The Nords believe Talos did become a god.

 

That said, in the game, I believe you should side with the Imperials, not the Stormcloaks. Here’s why.

 

The Imperials and the Stormcloaks are united in their desire to make Talos worship a right of every Nord, but the Stormcloaks refuse to admit it. The Imperials only agreed to the ban (that they only rarely or never enforce — only the Thalmor enforce it) as a bargaining chip to end the war with the Elves.

 

The Stormcloaks are a cluster of poorly organized lay-abouts, who just sit about and moan about how they can’t worship Talos out in the open like they used to, with the Thalmor roaming the neighborhood. However, instead of attacking the Thalmor directly — which are far fewer in number and are essentially there only because the Imperials have a treaty to let them in.. the Stormcloaks decide to attack the Imperials of their own blood. WHY?

 

Can’t you see that the Imperials are surely using this treaty as a strategy against the Thalmor, to let them in, and then suddenly make the strike? They can’t contact their Elven brethren when they’re way out in Riften or someplace, so that would be a prime opportunity to commit a fatal blow, an “Order 66″ as it were, against the Elves while their backs are turned believing themselves to be in security from attack, when instead the Imperials are simply sharpening their swords and lacing them with Drain Magicka poisons. The Stormcloaks are totally messing up the plan.

 

The best plan, if the Stormcloaks could actually think for a second, unlike the meat-head Ah-nold stereotypes they appear to be, is to become an Imperial, rise up through the ranks, and then sucker-punch the Thalmor with a surprise attack that will shatter their foothold and turn the tide widely into Nord favor. The Stormcloaks should be in support of Imperial efforts, not hampering it with their incessant whining and poorly-organized attacks that only strengthen the Thalmor advantage!

 

The Imperials, to use a metaphor, are becoming employees of the Thalmor, but using the money earned from it to buy a poison dagger to stab the Thalmor as they drift off to sleep in the big cushy office chair, believing they’re in safety and power..

http://ablestmage.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/why-you-should-become-an-imperial-not-a-stormcloak/

Edited April 15, 2012 by kevkiev

[Kohdi]

These are all good points, but I'll draw attention back to two things in my previous post -

 

Banning the worship of Talos is nearly as dangerous as letting the Thalmor take control of Skyrim and the Snow Tower. While Talos is not a complete Tower in himself, without him there would be no direct connection between the gods and men. He may yet have some influence over the mortal plane which has not manifested yet (or has, and we can't see it), but regardless, the Thalmor ban on his worship (which the Imperials follow, willingly or not) has very dangerous consequences.

 

Second, it is important to remember that the Imperials were nearly eradicated in the Great War. They have so little strength left that they betrayed Hammerfell (which still continues the fight) and lost the only two provinces worth keeping, Valenwood and Elsweyr (Morrowind, Argonia, and High Rock are essentially unimportant right now). Giving them control of Skyrim, the last strong province, is trusting that in their weakened state they can protect both Cyrodiil and Skyrim. However, the Stormcloaks are a rising factor, and the majority of Skyrim's people (at least after completing that side of the war quest) sympathize with their causes. The Stormcloaks work to re-establish Talos worship and drive the Thalmor out of Skyrim. I side with them because they have a reason to fight, they have the strength to fight the Dominion, they know the land and its people, and they understand (perhaps better than anyone) the historical consequences of getting too comfortable with a powerful society of Elves (recall the Night of Tears and the Fall of the Snow Prince). True, Ulfric himself might not be the perfect candidate for High King, but he's a whole lot better than living under the combined thumb of the Imperials and Thalmor.

[magiii]

i guess i have seen about 20 of these threads here

[BrettM]

i guess i have seen about 20 of these threads here

This one didn't start out that way, but took a left turn into the usual argument. The OP was just asking about the mechanics and rewards of the two quest lines to find out if there were any gameplay reasons to choose one side over the other, not whether there were any philosophical reasons. But it's just too much fun to argue the philosophy and lore, so it was obvious the thread would get there sooner or later. :)

[magiii]

answer: none give good things. imperials result in less destroyed white run

[BrettM]

The Eight Towers served as supports which uphold reality, each powered by a Stone, and together they comprised what the Aldmer called the Doom Drum, from which Lorkhan gets his name. With the destruction or control of each Tower the Thalmor come closer to pulling down the fabric of reality, after which they can unravel Time by destroying the Adamantine Tower (Akatosh's spike of creation, located on the island of Balfiera in the Iliac Bay). This series of acts will serve to free the souls of the Aldmer, who were creations of the Divines but were tricked out of immortality by Lorkhan's creation of Mundus, the world.

 

The importance all of this has to Skyrim is twofold - First, the Thalmor outlawed the worship of Talos, who took part of Lorkhan's place as an Earthbone, in hopes that this would weaken his supplementary support of reality, making it that much easier to pull the world down. Second, the last standing Tower, essentially the one pillar holding everything up, is the Throat of the World in Skyrim. If the Thalmor gain control of the Tower or its (unknown) Stone, all mortals will be lost in the ensuing metaphysical chaos.

I've been thinking about this and doing a little research of my own that gives rise to two thoughts.

 

1. How sure are you that the Towers/Stones "uphold reality"? It seems to me that reality was established by the Adamantine Tower with the Zero Stone, and reality was stable as long as the Aedra were in residence. They then created the Red Tower with the Heart of Lorkhan as its Stone, which allowed Mundus to continue after they returned to Aetherius. These two Towers alone were sufficient to uphold reality, as the other Towers did not yet exist, so the others can hardly be necessary props.

 

As I understand it, the Aldmer began the construction of the other Towers for their own purposes, in imitation of the original two. Since each Tower was built by a group having a more-or-less divergent viewpoint from the others, this was the point at which the Aldmer subdivided into Ayleid, Altmer, Chimer, Bosmer, etc. Would destroying these Towers actually bring down reality, or would it result in the associated splinter groups merging back together to recreate the original root stock? I.e., might the purpose of the Thalmor be to re-unite all of the branches of their race to recreate the Aldmer? Pulling down the Adamantine Tower might free their souls, but only if they are first made whole again.

 

2. The "unknown" Stone of the Snow Tower: The Eye of Magnus? The parallel of the name with the name of another Stone, the Heart of Lorkhan, seems suggestive, given that Magnus was the architect of the mortal plane. This would explain so much. If the Falmer were the splinter group that created the Snow Tower using the Eye, then they would surely have been upset when those Atmoran colonists just happened to stumble on the Stone while building Saarthal, leading to the Night of Tears as the Falmer tried desperately to reclaim it.

 

This would also mean that Ancano's grab for the Eye may have been more than simple power lust, assuming that he knew what it was. We may have had a very narrow escape, with the Thalmor coming within a whisker of controlling the Snow Tower, whether this was Ancano's intention or not! The whole incident may have a much deeper significance than we realized, lending new weight to the ominious warnings of the Psijics. Will they be able to keep it safe, and can they be trusted with it?

[Kohdi]

The Eight Towers served as supports which uphold reality, each powered by a Stone, and together they comprised what the Aldmer called the Doom Drum, from which Lorkhan gets his name. With the destruction or control of each Tower the Thalmor come closer to pulling down the fabric of reality, after which they can unravel Time by destroying the Adamantine Tower (Akatosh's spike of creation, located on the island of Balfiera in the Iliac Bay). This series of acts will serve to free the souls of the Aldmer, who were creations of the Divines but were tricked out of immortality by Lorkhan's creation of Mundus, the world.

 

The importance all of this has to Skyrim is twofold - First, the Thalmor outlawed the worship of Talos, who took part of Lorkhan's place as an Earthbone, in hopes that this would weaken his supplementary support of reality, making it that much easier to pull the world down. Second, the last standing Tower, essentially the one pillar holding everything up, is the Throat of the World in Skyrim. If the Thalmor gain control of the Tower or its (unknown) Stone, all mortals will be lost in the ensuing metaphysical chaos.

I've been thinking about this and doing a little research of my own that gives rise to two thoughts.

 

1. How sure are you that the Towers/Stones "uphold reality"? It seems to me that reality was established by the Adamantine Tower with the Zero Stone, and reality was stable as long as the Aedra were in residence. They then created the Red Tower with the Heart of Lorkhan as its Stone, which allowed Mundus to continue after they returned to Aetherius. These two Towers alone were sufficient to uphold reality, as the other Towers did not yet exist, so the others can hardly be necessary props.

 

As I understand it, the Aldmer began the construction of the other Towers for their own purposes, in imitation of the original two. Since each Tower was built by a group having a more-or-less divergent viewpoint from the others, this was the point at which the Aldmer subdivided into Ayleid, Altmer, Chimer, Bosmer, etc. Would destroying these Towers actually bring down reality, or would it result in the associated splinter groups merging back together to recreate the original root stock? I.e., might the purpose of the Thalmor be to re-unite all of the branches of their race to recreate the Aldmer? Pulling down the Adamantine Tower might free their souls, but only if they are first made whole again.

 

2. The "unknown" Stone of the Snow Tower: The Eye of Magnus? The parallel of the name with the name of another Stone, the Heart of Lorkhan, seems suggestive, given that Magnus was the architect of the mortal plane. This would explain so much. If the Falmer were the splinter group that created the Snow Tower using the Eye, then they would surely have been upset when those Atmoran colonists just happened to stumble on the Stone while building Saarthal, leading to the Night of Tears as the Falmer tried desperately to reclaim it.

 

This would also mean that Ancano's grab for the Eye may have been more than simple power lust, assuming that he knew what it was. We may have had a very narrow escape, with the Thalmor coming within a whisker of controlling the Snow Tower, whether this was Ancano's intention or not! The whole incident may have a much deeper significance than we realized, lending new weight to the ominious warnings of the Psijics. Will they be able to keep it safe, and can they be trusted with it?

 

You make good points there, but my madness still has its reasons. ;)

 

The towers do not individually hold up reality, that is the duty of the Adamantine Tower, but as each successive Tower was created it became a kind of support, or more like a wall, which needs to be torn down before attacking the Spike of Creation itself (Uncoiling the Dragon, as it's been said). As a side note, Talos himself also serves this function from his position as a divine, hence the Thalmor's need to end his worship.

 

The Thalmor, from what I understand, started as a kind of religious minority (more of a cult) on Summerset Isle, where the majority of the Aldmer did not agree with their ideas or plans. This can be seen in the numerous groups around Skyrim (notably the Dunmer and Bosmer) being uninterested or downright hostile toward the Thalmor. This also explains why the Thalmor are tearing down towers, whereas the Aldmeri people have built them in the past. The defining moment for the Thalmor was their apparent "saving" of Summerset from the Oblivion Crisis, which won them more respect and political power than they should have been trusted with.

 

As for the Eye of Magnus being the Stone of Snow Tower, it is a good (and persistent) theory but I have some lingering doubts, mostly due to this short passage written a little before the game was released - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kinmune . The story is unofficial, but Michael Kirkbride's texts make some very interesting and sometimes enlightening reading. This story in particular is a fairly difficult read, but it seems to suggest that the Eye of Magnus is the "shell" of a 9th-era mining intelligence that was shot back through time under the place where Saarthal would be built. The intelligence acted as a kind of oracle to the native peoples (including the Falmer, as you mentioned) until it escaped its shell (all we have now) around the time of the emperor Cuhlecain. Again, this is highly subject to doubt and could be just a fun, confusing thing to read, but that's where my misgivings stem from.

 

If it is the stone, I would be confident in trusting the Psiijics with its protection. Like I said, the Thalmor are just a crazy group of radicals gone too far, there may yet be significant resistance even on Summerset Isle.

 

Apologies for hijacking this thread, I'll shut up now if nobody wants a metaphysics discussion. ;)