US Army Combat Armor with ranks

[mono12346]

Remember the US Army Combat Armor from Lonsome Road? well the armor has a private rank attached to it so my request is can someone make Combat Armor's with different military ranks such as Corporal, Sergeant. etc

[devinpatterson]

Yeah, it has "A single golden chevron is painted on each pauldron, denoting the owner as a private." It's a good idea, maybe up to commissioned officers, since the riot armor was worn by officers. I'm not that knowledgable re: the military, but that would include NCOs like sergents and corporals as well as enlisted.

For enlisted alone (army) I see about a dozen insignia, so that would probably be a good start.

This makes sense to me, but I could be completely off re: the riot armor.....it might just have been standard issue for the 11th armored cavalry. Maybe someone that actually knows what they're talking about can chime in and let us know re: whether commissioned officers would be likely to have combat armor\battle dress in this retro sci-fi universe.

Once we get that figured out the inssignia will be trivial to do (or I can start on a few enlisted rank now).

[dubiousintent]

Okay, I'm retired Army and actually served with the 11th ACR in Vietnam. So my info is somewhat dated as it's organizational structure has changed somewhat over time, but I'm updating it from this published "Table of Equipment (ToE)".

Just so we are on the same page, here is an image of the "rank insignia" we will be referring to.

Modern warfare targets officers and NCOs, so they do not wear obvious (such as bright yellow) insignia in combat. They wear "subdued" instead, usually black rank marks on an "olive drab" background (or black "pins" without a background).

"Riots" are a form of urban combat. So the game is already off on the wrong foot in that regard, as every instance I've encountered in the game is wearing what would be considered "garrison garb" (i.e. bright colored insignia to be easily spotted) from the pre-Vietnam era. (These days it's only worn on "dress uniform".) So I am assuming you want to remain with the established "bright" color scheme. That can be "hand waved away" as the result of emergency deployment from garrison duty, so they didn't have subdued gear on hand. (We'll ignore the fact that currently even garrison "utility" garb (i.e. "fatigues") is subdued. Obviously "doctrine changed" over the years yet again.)

 

The point of brightly colored insignia is to be seen. The pauldron is the equivalent of the rank "shoulder boards" worn with dress uniform. Subdued insignia tends to be placed on the collar lapels, or in the center of the chest. "Leaders" (by position rather than necessarily by rank) may have a solid vertical white reflective stripe on the back of their helmets to make it easier for their troops to find them at night (because they lead from the front.)

Leadership ranks vary a bit depending upon how fully the ToE positions have been filled under the latest austerity measures, and casualties during the current operation. (Unlike most government civil service organizations, in the military it's "up or out" during downsizing. The higher you are, the more likely you will be encouraged to retire; or accept a normally lower rank posting when you get "bumped down" by someone whose former position was "made redundant".) If you aren't near the cut-off for "time in service" to get offered a retirement package, it's "Bye; see if the reserves can find a slot for you; but they are probably getting reduced as well".)

The Regiment is normally led by a Lt. Colonel (O5) or Colonel (O6). They are an "administrator" and usually only direct operations from the rear or a "command and control" helicopter. Like any administrator, they spend most of their time in meetings.

A "squadron" is the basic maneuver unit of the Armored Cavalry, and is usually led by a Major (O4) or Lt. Colonel (O5), and has:
* A support squadron
* A Field Artillery Battery
* An Engineer Company
* 3 Cavalry Troops

Each "Cavalry Troop" is led by a Captain (O3) or Major (O4) and has:
* A Troop Headquarters section (TRP HQ)
* A Mortar Section (MORT SEC)
* 2 Scout Platoons (SCT PLT)
* 2 Tank Platoons (TANK PLT)
* A Maintenance Section (MAIN SEC)

Each "Scout Platoon" of your "Troop" deployed into the field is going to have a platoon leader (2nd or 1st Lieutenant), assisted by a platoon sergeant (E6 or E7), two section leaders (E5 or E6), two squad leaders (E4 or E5), six "Cavalry Fighting Vehicle" (CFV = M3 Bradley) gunners (E3 or E4), six CFV drivers (E3 or E4), and twelve scouts (E1-E4). (E1 is a "basic recruit and is usually promoted to E2 upon graduating "basic training". If you screw up badly enough you can get demoted (busted in rank) back to E1 at any time.)

The "Mortar Section" and each "Tank Platoon" of your "Troop" is much less likely to be deployed during "riot duty" as they tend to be detrimental to the integrity of city infrastructure. Their man-power might be deployed to augment that of the "Scout Platoons".

Each "Tank Platoon" leader (2nd or 1st Lieutenant) is assisted by a platoon sergeant (E6 or E7), two tank commanders (E6), four gunner/assistant tank commanders (E5), four tank crewman (driver) (E4), and four tank crewman (loaders) (E1-E3).

The "Mortar Section" leader (E7) is assisted by two mortar squad leaders (E6), two gunners (E4), two carrier drivers (E4), and two assistant gunners (E1-E3).

Ranks above E6 or O5 tend to be "Administrative" and seldom deployed in the field for activity like a "Riot". They may make an appearance to gather performance data, so they are not impossible to encounter; just less likely.

Edit: Added about pauldrons and shoulder boards.]

 

-Dubious-

[devinpatterson]

Thanks Duiousintent, that's some great info (as always) and I appreciate it.

I'm going to focus/pinpoint some aspects as I think they are the most immediate concerns from a modders point of view.

 

Modern warfare targets officers and NCOs, so they do not wear obvious (such as bright yellow) insignia in combat. They wear "subdued" instead, usually black rank marks on an "olive drab" background (or black "pins" without a background).

I completely understand, but as foolish as it would be to identify officers to the enemy, it is essentially lore now.

 

So I see two ways to go; 1. follow the established lore and continue the rank insignia with the LR combat armor or 2. Subdued insignia which makes far more sense but is apparently not the direction the developers went.

And realistically both would be pretty easy to do, so I guess two mods might be in order.

 

I have the same question for both versions of the mod. Considering your knowledge of the military and it's fictional analog in the fallout world, what is the highest rank that would be likely to wear combat armor? E9? It sounds like we just have to worry about enlisted since it seems unlikely commissioned officers will be wearing combat armor. Once that's established, I'll make up the decals (or just retexture) and maybe make the highest ranks armors have a little bonus too.

Although I suspect since we haven't had any input from mono12346 that this is an orphaned request. But since it's so easy, I think it's still worth doing.

 

And my own ramblings; I wouldn't worry about teh riot armor "label" overly much. It's true that we saw it initially as LAPD riot armor and that is where it is most prevalent, but fortunately or unfortunately we have at least one military version that isn't related to riot control (the desert ranger). Although it was used in riot control operations the Divide area, it may have been standard issue for the 11th armored cavalry battledress (much as the Marine Corp's desert ranger armor). I'm guessing this was just a developer shortcut for a quick retexture and minor model edit to create a new armor, but there are some roots in the hermes projects of lighter high DT body armor, and regardless it's official lore since Honest Hearts came out. So I just consider the "riot control" armor category simply combat armor with a overcoat/duster....regardless whether it's used by riot control police or military (with riot control operations or not). It may possibly be of more advanced composites or benefit from other material advances (and newer manufactor date) than standard combat armor since it has better DT, but it appears in the wiki that the same manufactorer produced prodcut for both civilian and military customers.

The Hermes has some additional lore, but is also problamatic and not (I don't think) cannon......so I'll put that under a spoiler since it is a tangent.

 

 

Van Buren entry;

HERMES armor, developed by a division of Poseidon Energy working in conjunction with the Department of Defense, was intended to be the next generation of combat armor used by elite light infantry troops[1]. In theory, it was to offer all of the protection of power armor without the cumbersome weight or Strength enhancements[2].

 

but it was supposedly never moved out of the prototype phase even though "The NCR Ranger combat armor in Fallout: New Vegas is depicted in official artwork as having 'H3RM35' stamped onto the radio receiver built into the helmet." so the riot type armors may have been an early precursor for Hermes or just jumbled up lore from different writers/developers.

 

 

[dubiousintent]

Re: what is the highest rank that would be likely to wear combat armor? Everyone is issued "standard armor" (whatever that is at that time). (Generals get to "customize" theirs as they see fit: think Gen. Patton.) When "in the field" officers wear the same as the troops both to set an example and as a show of solidarity.

 

Depending upon the scenario you could have any rank present, but realistically all you are likely to see on the streets in combat gear during a riot are Captains (for single units) or Majors (for multiple units). In a very loose way, you can think of officers as paired with an NCO "assistant sergeant" (2Lt/E6, 1Lt/E6-7, Cpt/E7-8, Maj/E8, LtCol+/E8-9). Otherwise, the sergeants are in charge of each of the sub-units below "platoon". Officers below Captain are highly unlikely to have any battle damage to their armor unless they are killed.

The "duster" doesn't make much sense as "armor", but does as protection of the armor itself from the effects of riot control gas and radioactive particles. Easily replaced or disposed of, and much cheaper to clean or replace. Giving it some additional low level "layered" DT/DR effect seems reasonable. What everyone seems to ignore is how HOT armor is, especially when layered. Exertion generates a lot of excess heat and perspiration. That would stain any leather.

 

-Dubious-

[devinpatterson]

Re: what is the highest rank that would be likely to wear combat armor? Everyone is issued "standard armor" (whatever that is at that time). (Generals get to "customize" theirs as they see fit: think Gen. Patton.) When "in the field" officers wear the same as the troops both to set an example and as a show of solidarity.

So all ranks could have it? I wasn't sure because we have an outfit like the US Army General outfit, so I sort of assumed a rank that high wouldn't be in an actual active combat arena. But I suppose that would depend on circumstance and personality. Maybe it might be best then, to go off of how rare the ranks are.....relative to each other. The practical result would be mostly lower ranks added to a formlist, with maybe a few unique set for some of the highest ranks (just as a high value scores/hauls).

What would you suggest?

 

Depending upon the scenario you could have any rank present, but realistically all you are likely to see on the streets in combat gear during a riot are Captains (for single units) or Majors (for multiple units). In a very loose way, you can think of officers as paired with an NCO "assistant sergeant" (2Lt/E6, 1Lt/E6-7, Cpt/E7-8, Maj/E8, LtCol+/E8-9). Otherwise, the sergeants are in charge of each of the sub-units below "platoon". Officers below Captain are highly unlikely to have any battle damage to their armor unless they are killed.

I'm more focused on just military combat armor for this particular mod, as opposed to riot control....for now just focusing on our rank and file standard olive green, army combat armor. But I'll definitely keep that in mind for riot control operations in the divide and other parts of the old world.

 

The "duster" doesn't make much sense as "armor", but does as protection of the armor itself from the effects of riot control gas and radioactive particles. Easily replaced or disposed of, and much cheaper to clean or replace. Giving it some additional low level "layered" DT/DR effect seems reasonable. What everyone seems to ignore is how HOT armor is, especially when layered. Exertion generates a lot of excess heat and perspiration. That would stain any leather.

Yeah, I suspect the dusters for the L.A. riot gear were probably added after the fact (post old world) for the harsh Mojave desert, but the I'm not so sure with the 11th Armored Cavalry. It looks like they may have been a set with the duster....don't know.

 

There is a post apocalyptic series (outlanders) that uses a similar setup of armor with a duster. The armor is polycarbonate with a heavy great coat/duster of kevalar. The two layers complemented each other, IIRC to provide multiple types of protection and the the sum being greater than the parts. Perhaps the dusters on the military issued riot gear armor are ballistic fiber.

[dubiousintent]

As I mentioned in the first post, "riots" are just another (generally less lethal) form of "urban combat". But the end result (according to lore) escalated to all-out warfare. So leveled lists for companies/troops and below, with higher rank commanders of larger units much less frequent (high value scores) or "set piece" would be reasonable.

 

But commanders of multiple units(and their staffs) are "planners" and "organizers", and such would not be heavy on combat gear. Minimal personal weapons and loads. Their "valuables" are in intelligence: organization charts, locations, and plans. For post-apocalyptic survivors, they are actually low value loot; unless they are in a supply depot of some sort.

 

The military prefers "uniformity of appearance". Distinctiveness in apparel tends to be limited to headgear or shoulder tabs in garrison gear such as the color or style for morale purposes. No troop wants to feel their unit has been given less protective gear than anyone else. (Bad for morale.) So, if "dusters" are given to some troops, then they are most likely to be "standard issue" for everyone.

 

The exceptions would be "special forces" because they are much smaller, generally covert units which are not intended to stay and "punch it out" with enemy units, but use stealth to operate undetected, and hit and run when necessary. For those sorts of missions they get "non-standard issue" gear too expensive and specialized for general issue. For "Fallout" players, they would be the "jackpot" sort of high score loot.

 

The 11th ACR is a "fire brigade" sort of unit. They get sent in when 1) mobility is a priority (e.g. quick response or deployment), 2) less than a division is required but more than a brigade, and 3) heavy firepower/big guns (artillery and tanks) are needed in support. Their "squadrons" can be detached to operate independently when more mobility is desired than an infantry battalion has organically (which has to be hauled around by yet another, dedicated but "soft target" "transport unit"). Their total man-power is smaller than comparable infantry units, but the armored vehicles are "force multipliers". High mobility makes any unit more effective; but also more expensive to maintain.

 

-Dubious-