Muennin Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Here, here!!! *clapping* Aside from that, Bush insists upon calling such weapons nucular, rather than nuclear. Should he have these means at his ready if he cannot even pronounce them properly? <_< (This must give his speech writers fits-ha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmid Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 No, never. Again I am forced to vote for the lesser of two Evils. Bush must not be re-elected, that is imperative; notonly to the U.S but to the safety and sanctity of the whole World. Reminds me of a campaign run in France before the last elections. The tag-line was, 'Vote for the crook, not the Nazi'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Thief Oriana Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 also reminds me of the govenors race of La. a while back (Like in the 80's). "Vote for the crook (Meaning Edwin Edwards), not the racist (Meaning David Duke, a former leader of the KKK)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Ahh, here we go again, I just can't get enough of this topic! Anyway, in regards to to WMD it should be pointed out that this is an often miss-used term. WMD (as we all know) refers to Weapons of MASS Destruction, which was developed in order to describe nuclear weapons...hence "mass" destruction. In today's world the news media and others (governments) have over used the term because its "sexy," meaning its hard to ignore and gets peoples attention.Biological and chemical weapons do NOT qualify as WMD because of the amounts required to do serious damage. These weapons are typically referred to as C/B (chemical/biological) weapons because they occupy a completely separate class of weaponry.While potentially devastating when used in large quantities, the problem is just that, they must be used in large quantities. Chemical weapons degrade very quickly in sunlight and are therefore more apt to be used at night and in tactical situations. It is pretty impractical to use these weapons for anything else. Biological weapons are damned hard to produce because they have to be weaponized. This means that the biological agent (say anthrax) must be turned into an aerosolized powder. This is not kid stuff and it took the U.S. and Russia the better part of a decade to figure out how to do it. Again, these weapons must be used in large quantities to cause significant harm...and they most certainly do not cause destruction. You are absolutely right about the term WMD. But concerning biological weapons you are not right. Chemical weapons, yes, there you need a large amount to do any harm. But not biological weapons. At least modern biological weapons. Anthrax compared to modern viruses is like a middle-age cannon compared to a machine gun. The Iraqi government declared to have produced 7000 cubicmetres of Botulinumtoxin (compressed twenty times) in the Al Manal facility, near the south border of Bagdad (this facility was built by France). Theoretically this is enough bot-tox to kill every human on earth a thousand times. One point of bot-tox as big as the point above the "i" is enough to kill 10 humans, when it is compressed 20 times. Interesting, until this day not even one cubicmilimeter was found of these 7000 cubicmeters of bot-tox. Now, a state in the middleeast, not very rich and on the egde of becoming an industrial nation (before the Bush-Senior-Gulf-war), most of its industry and money used up in a devastating war against its neighbouring country (Iran) can produce enough biological weapons to kill every human being a thousand times. I do not want to think about what the industrial, modern nations (USA, Russia, China, EU, Japan) posses. Probably a lot more. And a lot more dangerous viruses. It is very easy to create biological weapons. With only a field laboratory you can begin to produce them. Anthrax and Bot-tox are some of the littlest harmful viruses. What is with pestilence, ebola, small pocks, influenza? It is known that the USA posess viruses from the "spanish influenza" which killed 20 million people in 1918 and 1919. The only nations which officially posess small pocks are USA and Russia. Which other nations poses small pocks unofficially is unknown. The USA posses a rocket which has the ability to carry biological weapons (US-Patent Nr. 6,523,478 from 25.2.2003). So, the real threat for this world was not Iraq, but is the USA. The USA posses the "spanish influenza" virus, posses small pocks virus and posses a rocket with which they can launch biological weapons towards other nations. Also the fact that the USA blocked a new Geneva Convention against biological weapons concerns me. Who tells us, if the USA is already planning a biological attack on the rest of the world? So, in order to protect humanity, I request that every nation on this planet attacks the USA immediatly :P Oh, and here is a good German website concerning biological weapons with sources: http://www.herbertmasslau.de/pageID_1048891.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Thief Oriana Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Please, let me leave first. I promise I'll help you guys :P . It's funny the way the U.S. brain works: we drop both bombs and food (Shamelessly stolen from Robin Williams). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muennin Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 A most insightful post above, Darnoc. "Innocent until proven guilty" is our legal motto in the states, so I'm certain you will appreciate my following up on your statistics to prove your well-presented case. An active mind is most always an asset, after all. Much thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojlnir Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 My thanks to Darnoc for correcting my error concerning biological weapons. Sure enough, I went back and pulled all my notes on them and discovered that Darnoc was correct. My points, confirmed by Darnoc, concerning chemical weapons are correct. It is still my opinion that biological weapons (BW) development in less-industrialized countries is less a threat than it is being made out to be.I feel that the greater threat lies in unprotected stockpiles in Russia and the former Soviet republics. The amount of investment capital required to successfully produce BW in my opinion precludes any "rogue" state from supplying them to a non-state actor (terrorist group) or, on the same line of logic any non-state actor having sufficient funding and facilities to produce dangerous quantities of weapons grade material.Darnoc is right in pointing out that biological agents can begin to be produced in a field setting...those of you who are in college at the moment can attest to this. The mold growing on the pizza under your couch or in the coffee pot is a biological agent. In order to produce dangerous weapons you must obtain highly virulent strains of the agent you are wishing to produce. This is not as easy as is sounds. The US is currently destroying both its chemical and biological weapons capability, and yes we do possess the technology for a rocket...the Russians do as well. It is simply an off-shoot of the Cold War. The US does retain samples of such diseases as small-pox, though these are tightly guarded at USAMRIID.Once the strain you wish to employ has been obtained, it must be created in mass quantities. This can be achieved in facilities designed for the production of medicine, which is where the fear of "dual-use" technology comes from. The initial production aspects can be achieved with relative ease, and yes, it can be accomplished in small field facilities.The next aspect of BW production is the most difficult, the material must be weaponized. This consists of drying the material in such a way that it remains virulent and can be aerosolized...meaning turned into a very fine and easily dispersable powder. This is nowhere near easy and it requires specialized equipment and, most importantly, know-how. Random terrorists hiding in caves are NOT going to be able to pass this stage unless they have aquired a specialist from the former Soviet Union. So, BW are not easy to make, though they are currently much easier to steal. A terrorist organization lacking a stable base of operations and technical know-how will not be able to produce these weapons. They are better served to steal them. A "rogue" state could, on the other hand, successfully produce these weapons though they would have to aquire said know-how as well. I believe that any state which created such capability would NOT give it to a terrorist organization for several reasons:1. the national cost associated with procurement (we worked hard to get this, we're not giving it away) 2. national power3. stigma and retaliation (BW development is opaque, meaning you don't want anyone to know you're doing it...at least until its finished because the threat of retaliation has already been demonstrated and the US would have taken even stronger measures had Saddam actually possess the weapons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Thanks for adding more information on the subject, Mojlnir. I will translate the German website into English together with all the sources, so that you all can look it up here. I'll be back, when I am finished... =================================================== Herbert Masslau Bio Terrorism (30th November 2003) Preliminary Note To say it right at the beginning: Nobody, really nobody, on this world possess the financial resources, the scientific capacities, the technical infrastructure and finally the possibilities of intelligence and police to produce biological weapons – except for states. It is of course still possible that one person or a group of persons can successfully launch a biological attack, like the one in the subway of Tokyo in March 1995[2]. But in only nar-rowed capacity and quantity. A huge scientific and financial extremely expensive apparatus, which must have the ability of genetically engineering viruses so that they can be adapted to new vaccines and antibiotics, is needed. This only states can possess, because it would also must be kept in secret and this also takes away large amounts of money. So the subject of the Geneva Convention of November 2003 – blocked by the USA – is a new convention against biological weapons concerning states [3]. Our worries shouldn’t be about some terrorists but about states, like the Anthrax-assaults after 11th September which created a climate of fear in the population. Bioterrorist USA It is interesting to note from a historical listing of a document from the EU [2] that in the peri-ods between wars it was worked especially active on biological and chemical weapons. So the Geneva Protocol against the usage of toxic gas and bacteriologic weapons was signed 1925. In the period between the two world wars (1918 – 1939) the war gases Sarin, Soman and Tabun were developed. The United Kingdom researched especially Anthrax. After WW2 (1945) also VX-gas was developed and especially the USA and Russia (at this time Sowjetun-ion) actuated a huge research in biological weapons and are the only two states which possess officially small pocks viruses [4]. Worldwide mostly the USA is the superpower (after the breakdown of the Sowjetunion 1989) which uses its wealth gained through petrodollars [5] to build up a huge weapon potential which includes biological weapons. CIA can also decide which bacteria will be chosen [6]. And the USA possess the grenades to shoot biological weapons towards other nations, it was patented by them (US-Patent Nr. 6,523,478 from 25th February 2003) [7]. Also the USA are at the moment genetically engineering the small pocks virus, so that vac-cines and antibiotics are ineffective against it [8] and the US-Army tries to revitalize the virus of the “Spanish Influenza” which killed over 20 Mill people in 1918 and 1919 [9]. Otherwise it is the USA which blocks a new convention against biological weapons because of their absence in the talks of Geneva in 2003. The planned regulations “are concentrating too much on the western nations instead on those nations which probably try to develop bio-logical weapons” [3a]. Further “the secrets of the US Biotech-Industry or US Bio-Defence program wouldn’t be guarded enough” [3b]. Already after WW2 the USA has taken over the Japanese war criminals for their bio-weapons-program. Those scientists from the “Unit 731” (which killed thousands of peoples in China through tests with agents like cholera or pestilence during the occupation) were spared from the war criminals tribunal, if they helped the USA [10], [11]. Bio weapons There are two categories of bio weapons: External and Internal. Internal bio weapons are used by states to repress the own population. The goal of such in-ternal bio weapons is to repress protests through intimidation and ventilation of fears of al-leged terrorists (with help of the Medias of the corporative journalism). This will be shown with Ebola and Anthrax. External bio weapons are used to create damage among the population of another state and to bring the economy of this state to its knees. For this the bio weapon must create great dam-age but doesn’t have to be allowed to become pandemic, which would affect the own state again. Also vaccines and antibiotics must be ineffective against such weapons; research for a new vaccine must take long so that the weapon can cause lots of damage. It is also good when the affects of this weapon resemble a common illness or disease so that for some time no counter measures will be taken. In Europe a weapon with the same symptoms like a cold would be perfect, when the assault happens in autumn or winter. This will be shown with Small Pocks and Influenza. Domestically terror of the state: Example Anthrax Parallel to an outside war states in the modern times need fulfilling measures inside in order to control counter reactions inside the population. What is better than a project to add fuel to the fear of a biological assault? With this the state can still pretend to be a democracy and is in fact an authoritarian state. When we look at who was affected by the Anthrax assaults after 11th September there are 17 wounded and 5 dead. Take away the postmen and other indefinable people two groups of people stay behind: journalists and a senator of the Democrats (who was against the politics of Bush and the war), Tom Daschle [13]. After the assault Daschle disappeared in the immer-sion, concerning attacks on Bush’s politics. It seems as if he got the message. Anthrax isn’t a good weapon for larger damage, but it can be used to create a climate of fear inside the state. This evaluation doesn’t contradict with the historical example of Gruinard [12], [11] where the British tested such a large amount of Anthrax that you couldn’t land on the island for decades. Ebola, SARS, HIV … That the origin of Ebola should be unknown makes the whole matter dubious. The area of circulation of Ebola is about the same as HIV. Ebola-“epidemics” were always confined; they appeared mostly in hospitals and affected medical personnel (like SARS). First appearance of this disease was the “Marburg-fever” in 1967 [14], where scientists from Germany infected themselves because of monkeys from Uganda. Those monkeys were vervet monkeys. Interesting, it was also said that HIV originated from vervet monkeys. Interesting fact is also that Ebola can only by diagnosed with help of complex and expensive laboratories of security level 4 [14]. Among the haemorrhaging fevers (like Dengue, Lassa, Hanta-virus) Ebola possess the highest death rate and there isn’t an effective antidote [16]. It is also interesting to mention that in the 6-Billion-Dollar program “Bio Shield” of the US-government research was made with Ebola, Hanta and FSME (tick-borne encephalitis) [17]. The confined area-effect of Ebola predestines it to become a tool to create a climate of fear inside states. Small Pocks as bio weapon Small Pocks can be used very well as bio weapons because of its high contagiosity and its resemblance at the beginning with a normal cold. At the moment, only the USA and Russia possess officially small pocks in high security laboratories [4]. One reason that they are held is that they can’t be reproduced easily with genetic engineering [18]. Influenza as bio weapon The biggest epidemic was the “Spanish Influenza” 1918/1919. The fact alone that US-scientists have taken the virus from a dead body of those times, genetically altered it and have put the genetic information into living viruses [20] is proof enough that “Spanish Influenza” and other forms of Influenza are going to be used by the state as bio weapons. Because pandemics aren’t good for a state (the state assaulting can be affected by its own vi-rus after a while) the virus will probably be genetically altered so that it doesn’t spread wide enough to become pandemic. Perhaps SARS was a test to find out how long it would take for a disease to spread [21]? Sources, Links [2] EU-Report “The new challenge of controlling chemical and biological weapons” from 5th November 2001, Document C/1758, pdf-download [3] New Scotsman on 9th November 2003, „US fear thwarts progress on world biological weapons ban“, http://www.news.scotsman.com/international...m?id=1235792003 [3a] like [3]; Original text: „(the new provisions) would focus on Western states instead of on those countries thought to be pursuing biological weapons“ [3b] like [3]; Original text: „(He also claimed that it) would not adequately protect the secrets of the US biotech industry or US bio-defence programmes“ [4] http://www.m-ww.de/krankheiten/infektionsk...ten/pocken.html [5] http://www.HerbertMasslau.de/pageID_562061.html (The Third World War) [6] Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung of 21st February 2002, „After Anthrax: USA arms against bio terrorism“, http://www.gene.ch/genpost/2002/Jan-Jun/msg00143.html [7] Press release from the Sunshine Project of the 8th May 2003, “US-Army receives patent for grenade to spread bio weapons”http://www.sunshine-project.de/infos/aktue...fengranate.html [8] New Scientist of 29th October 2003, „US develops lethal new viruses“, http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?...p?id=ns99994318 [9] Press release from the Sunshine Project of 9th October 2003, “Deadly flue line of 1918 genetically revitalized”, http://www.sunshine-project.de/infos/aktue...che_Grippe.html [10] The Sunshine Project, Bio weapon telegram nr. 8 of 11th September 2002, “Court ac-knowledges guilt of Japan, but refuses compensation for victims of bio weapons”, http://www.sunshine-project.de/infos/aktue...elegramm_8.html [11] Swiss-Noso “From the B-weapon to bio terrorism: Learning from the past for the fu-ture?” September 2001, http://www.hospvd.ch/swiss-noso/d83a2.htm [12] http://www.m-ww.de/krankheiten/infektionsk.../milzbrand.html [13] Washington Post of 27th August 2003, „Hatfill Sues over Anthrax Probe“, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Aug26.html [14] http://www.m-ww.de/krankheiten/infektionsk...iten/ebola.html [16] „Ebola hemorrhagic fever, ..., has the highest mortality rate of the viral hemorrhagic fe-vers and has no effective treatment“, Polsky/Bhatia, „Ebola hemorrhagic fever in the era of bioterrorism“, September 2003,http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...earch&DB=PubMed [17] Independent vom 29.6.2003, „Bioweapon labs will bring threat of lethal viruses to urban America“ http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americ...sp?story=419946 [18] The Sunshine Project, bio weapon telegram nr. 7 of 14th August 2002, “Artificial Poliovi-rus”, http://www.sunshine-project.de/infos/aktue...elegramm_7.html [19] http://www.m-ww.de/krankheiten/infektionsk...-influenza.html [20] ARD-Fernsehmagazin “Monitor” of 30th October 2003, “GM-Weapons: The soldiers of the future”, pdf-download, http://www.wdr.de/tv/monitor/beitrag.phtml...bid=539&sid=104 [21] Also see my article about “SARS – A bio weapon attack?” of April 2003, http://www.HerbertMasslau.de/pageID_576215.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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