Evil characters need more love...

[Sangel2525]

I mean, don't get me wrong I do very much enjoy my good characters. But I have a dark side I like to indulge. I remember in Morrowind for example, with some of the mods for vampires like Vampire Embrace, which seemed to be derived from Vampire The Masquerade it was a joy to be bad. There were also quite a few more evil oriented quests modders made. With Oblivion lately it seems to be getting a little better, but I really need something more for my evil characters. My first character in this game was a Bosmer Ranger, then I noticed some interesting vampire mods, and decided to try evil.

 

So I joined the Dark Brotherhood, became a vampire, and Listener. Then some Necromancy mods came out. One in particular comes to mind where you could harvest dead bodies, and use body parts and black soul gems filled with souls to create undead minions. But I found myself kind of stuck with my evil Vamperic Necromancer, because while she had a nice little abode to suit her, the status of Listener, and the ability to make undead minions... There was nothing for her to do with her abilities. No quests I could see her conceivably taking. Oblivion in general seems to be very much oriented towards good characters, and even most quest mods seem to be the same. Which is understandable, but I kind of stopped playing her for a long, long time. I mean I enjoyed my two major good characters who saved the world plenty. But I always wanted to go back to my evil little Mystic Elf. But there is not much she would do. She isn't the slightest bit altruistic, and wouldn't help someone without a major price.

 

I did try to keep some life in her from an RP perspective by having her rise in the ranks of The Mages guild, while keeping her secrets from them. She did it for political leverage and to eliminate the competition Mannimarco posed to her. Of course in my own mind I had to pretend things happened in a manner, in which they do not in game. Like she killed Traven. :P I would also in my mind have her do minor quests scattered about the game, and help people for the price of their soul with which to fill one of her black soul gems. So I squeezed as much as I could out of her, but then nothing more... She took down the competition made a small undead army, but what to do with it? Attack a city for no particular reason? No... That would just be a mindless killing spree. You can do that with any character. :(

 

Basically I want some purpose, and meaning for my evil character. Anyone else share this sentiment?

[Sarya]

Evil characters have no need for love. They need something sharp and a couple of victims.

 

Now, if a character is actually evil, then there's no better reason to attack a city than no reason at all, besides having fun, of course. If the character has a purpose he becomes less evil. So, what you mean is closer to selfish or dark or whatever. Evil doesn't define this enough, though I think most people are used to that way.

[LoginToDownload]

I always thought being 100% selfish made one evil, with "evil just because" being entirely optional. Adds some nice symmetry too.

 

Good: Helping others without regard for yourself.

Neutral: Helping yourself with regard for others, and helping others with regard for yourself.

Evil: Helping yourself without regard for others.

[Sarya]

Well, everyone is a little selfish. But in character consepts in such case while the character would be both evil and selfish, it's the selfish property what would define the character, and it would be selfish that caused evil, not reverse.

[tungol]

<snip> Oblivion in general seems to be very much oriented towards good characters, and even most quest mods seem to be the same. <snip>

 

Just some thoughts:

 

Real societies can only function because people are good. That is, they respect life and property, as well as certain other codes. So a game world that has any kind of civilization is going to have to be filled with basically good people. Alternatively, you could say that we're all evil, but that society makes it more expensive to acquire our wants through evil means than through good. Either way, realism demands that goodness be general.

 

But what do you mean by evil? If it's just doing things that benefit you without regard for others, the thieves' guild works nicely. There's a mod that adds independent fences as well, so all that's needed is some added heist quests, and you're basically working for yourself. I think there's a mod where you can join the Blackwood company, which would be a similar sort of thing. (TG has a bit of a Robin Hood tone, come to think of it.)

 

If evil means killing good people then you have a practical problem. It's no fun to play in a world where all the quest characters are dead. But its also kinda boring to know that no matter how many times you kill Jensine, she'll rise again after three days.

 

JRRT seems to have defined evil as the desire to dominate others. In that sense, a quest for the imperial throne would be the ultimate evil. Thus, killing troopers and council members might be a good deed, and killing rebel marauders and necromancers an evil deed. In that scenario, the practical problem comes with issuing commands, which is the consummation of your evil.

[dezdimona]

I always end up playing a mixture of good and evil in all my characters.

[myrmaad]

I always end up playing a mixture of good and evil in all my characters.

 

This is what I'm finding out/dealing with right now. I had no idea the depth and range of my character even though I loved her from the start. What's interesting to me is that while she's growing and changing, she's also staying true to who she is, the whole concept of her, from her starsign to the attributes I chose for her to exceed in, do not simply define her, they only formed the basis of a personality. Love, anger, pain, these are making her go through changes.

 

One day as she walked the path outside Imperial City she realized that it wasn't that long ago she had emerged from the sewers with nothing but the clothes on her back, now she can afford anything her heart desires, and money is such a non-object that she doesn't even think about it. There came a point when making Septims was no longer "for the money", but more the thrill of the conquest. And yet her life, she felt, still had meaning, though it wasn't romantic, she loved one person more than any other and literally would have laid her own life down for him. You know, he was the only person in Cyradil who shared his deepest secrets and insecurities with her. Their lives were both completely changed and intertwined by one man's fate, after all. Losing him has really sent her into a tailspin. She really doesn't care about anything anymore. I'm not sure where she's going. She actually seems to be drinking a lot, (like stealing a beer I never even saw her take, and filling the house in Skingrad with groceries and wine "for Ehja".

 

Ok, so here's something she's been doing lately, besides checking out the bars, she's a master at security, and lately she's been just sneaking into people's houses and watching them, nosing through their belongings out of boredom or curiosity, I guess. Her fame is at 100 so she likes to enchant herself with chameleon just to get a break. She hasn't had any real dealings with vampires yet, but I know they're looking for her, just by chance I lost two different save games after she was approached by some untrustworthy characters. She hates when she can't read their faces, especially because personality is one of her own greatest attributes. A lot of times when people faun over her, she's just like "whateva" blah blah blah, thinking I didn't do anything, the real hero is dead. Who comes up with these ridiculous titles anyway?

[Sangel2525]

Okay I want to avoid philosophical discussion on the concepts of good and evil as I will likely get carried away. I'm talking generically in a fantasy setting. I think LoginToDownload came rather close in what I mean. I mean sure I'd love to use my army to actually conquer cities. However since a full scale attack on any city will just lead to a lot of dead bodies and a bounty on my head with no actual rule over said city, why bother? I mean sure you can see me using the word evil and think homicidal maniac with no rhyme, reason, or rationality. But what about a more precise and cunning type of evil that aspires for power, and influence.

 

I want my evil-doers actions to actually impact aspects of the game, while I know there is a Mythic Dawn faction mod out there, the Mythic Dawn doesn't quite fit my tastes. The character in question here aspires to become a force just as fearsome as a Daedric Prince. A jailer of all souls on Tamerial, but that's setting my goals just a tad too high perhaps? :P So what about some politically motivated, malevolence... Of course throw in a dab of the macabre here and there, and aspire to rise in power in the existing power structure of The Empire, and then use your influence to bend, break, and subsequently corrupt it to your will? Something like that would be really fun! Of course if one day someone makes a mod where you can actually conquer Cyrodiil its self by waging war on the Empire it'll put a big smile on my face. Then again in the interest of having things run smoothly such a character, would likely try to attain their means of power politically through the existing structure before waging war. Or even set up her enemies, who don't even realize they are her enemies before striking. Making them vulnerable, catching them off guard. Also with that whole conquer The Empire concept said, I'm not saying kill all NPC's just because you can. No you want to take out the guards, and rulers of certain cities, then pretty much enslave the inhabitants of said city by creating your own twisted order.

 

I guess for the character in question, she has megalomaniac issues, and also aspires to become a force so powerful and terrible the forces of Oblivion would think twice about invading if she were running the show. But again I know I'm aiming too high here, and I have come to accept such a character may never really work out given the way the game is. So Blackwood Company? That could work for a cold blooded assassin type of character perhaps? Kill people, make money, no questions asked so long as you're payed. I never finished The Fighters Guild questline but I know those guys are bad news.

 

I have heard Shivering Isles is a bit less goody goody oriented? Is that true? If so it may give my baddy something to do. ;)

[Ziller]

I honestly don't think that ANY character morality was really "loved" in Oblivion. If you think about it, Character morality doesn't do anything ecept make a few NPS go " ohhh I 've heard of you...." It is the actions of the player themselves that change anything if you can call it "change". No, change is implying that something is now different, to strong of a word.

 

Sadly as I said before morality in Oblivion was shunned almost completely. You can't change the outcome of the Main quest or the guild quests just because you killed him or killed her. The greatest effect your decisions have is do i take the money and lie about it, or do i return it?"

 

I'm sure this can make all the difference to all you Hardcore PR people, but I myself am left with a sense that none of my actions REALLY count. I dunno, mabey I'm just crazy.

 

And don't sling that "phillisophical" crap at me, its just a GAME!

 

-out

[LoginToDownload]

I'm sure this can make all the difference to all you Hardcore PR people...

:P

 

Seems to me, once you include the Daedric quests, there's plenty of evil to go around... Mage's and Fighter's Guild stuff is never particularly "good", basically boiling down to killing things for money, which only leaves goodness an advantage in a few miscellaneous quests scattered about that aren't worth one's time compared to dungeon delving in general.