Evil characters need more love...

[Leenysaurus]

Being a vampyre .... makes you evil.

No, it doesn't. There's no evil when there's no conscious choice. And vampirism is not always a choice. And survival may be egoistic, but evil has nothing to do with it.

 

Seconded.

 

As an example:

 

Your character, let's say a good-aligned ranger who lives off the land and perhaps alone in the wild comes across a cave of vampires, and is afflicted with vampirism. They don't find a cure in time, and against their will become a vampire.

 

Arguably you could say they'd seek a cure, but it wouldn't be easy for them. With how Oblivion works and assuming such a character would refuse to feed off others, their affliction would grow worse and the sun would be too deadly for them. Travel would be limited, people would run in fear.

 

Vampirism can be just as much a tragedy as it is evil, but it's often wrongly associated with evil.

[LoginToDownload]

Your character, let's say a good-aligned ranger who lives off the land and perhaps alone in the wild comes across a cave of vampires, and is afflicted with vampirism. They don't find a cure in time, and against their will become a vampire.

What kind of lame ranger takes more than three days to find/buy some mandrake? IIRC, it costs two gold at most Mages Guildhalls or Alchemy shops. And even then, if they were good-aligned, they could just head to a chapel. /nitpick.

[kylebraden]

Im with LoginToDownload on this one. it takes a matter of minutes to fast travel to the nearest town, pray at a chapel, and be done with it. The only conceivable way I can think of that someone can become a vampire against their will is if they dont notice the "youve been infected with poriferic hemophylia" (pardon my spelling). I personally am a vampire, but i made that choice on my own during the dark brotherhood questline. i chose to become one because the vampire skill perks matched my own major skills, not necsarily because i am evil. i have no problem with the moral aspects of feeding because i enjoy being out in the daytime and interacting with the other npcs, not because im a particularly despicable character.

[tungol]

Seconding (or thirding) LoginToDownload's comments, vampirism obviously IS a choice in Cyrodiil. I guess it could result from carelessness, which is what usually happens to me. Or you could have forfeited access to a cure by other past choices.

But even if you were locked up and turned into a vampire against your will, the evil is not in being a vampire--not in what you ARE. It's in what you DO. (Hasn't Hellboy taught you ANYTHING, people?)

At any rate, vampires don't have to kill (or at least, steal blood) in ES. So you could be a non-evil vampire, or even a good vampire. And in theory, you could work out a deal with some friends to provide you blood. (When playing, you'd need a companion, and you'd kinda just have to assume they were OK with it. Seriously, I doubt your Adoring Fan would mind. He'd probably be delighted to have the Champion sucking his blood!) And then there's all those bandits--which opens another issue. I mean, properly you should really have to wait for them to attack you first. Then I guess you could turn invisible, run away, wait for them to fall asleep, and then come back and drain their blood. If you wanted to be strictly moral about it, that is.

[Aeryn333]

Bear with me a moment as I have you all..You know this discussion could go around the twist so many times, till all our knickers are in a twist.. and still end up with no answer..that will satisfy anyone..Why because we are dealing with vastly different perspective in what it is called 'evil' and is called 'good'..There are no rights and wrongs for each perspective is ones own right..

 

I feel from what I read, even though this was a Q DO 'evil' or darker characters need more love is what I responded to since it was the subject matter..but the avoidance of that Q makes me ponder why..so lets fence aliitle friendly like Ok..just for the craic..

 

Until this endless debate on what makes evil and good..Is a vampire evil, was the count of Skingrad evil, was he not disgusted with the vile creatures as he called them that had sunk to animalistic behaviours and nothing more natures..

 

Even he as a vampire knew there was a difference..So vampirism in and by itself is not evil, even joining the DB in not 'evil' if one chooses it..one can Dl a mod and also skip the pufication another choice..

 

Think about it, when you kill Rufio, and (spoiler alerts)he says I have done nothing, and you say oh yes you have and he goes on, to say, I told her not to struggle..Then in my eyes the *censored* deserved to die, it can be conjectured he obviously from his words, raped a womon..and killed her, in those times, justice was death, we cannot judge the actions, according to the rules of this world, but the ways of a world more based on older times..

 

Even the Dark mother who like the Dark Goddess is misunderstood, and called evil, yet is She or does she also have two sides, one that those who are 'evil' by choice, draw and call out of her, and one to pass judgement on those guilty of crimes, that the Empire would just pass by since corruption in high places, oft turns a blind eye..to protect themselves is why..

 

No justice, reigns, so you kill him, and avenge a womon who was violated and killed..Is it 'evil' or justice. Even if I accidentally kill someone ion battle, Lucien visits me, and I am not in the mood to go that direction, I simply refuse, or because I know what Rufio guilty of now on my mind,, I it do as a freebee and still don't go to the sanctuary.. Am I 'evil' no, for in my eyes, Rufios crime, is a death sentence..

 

Once here in Ireland and other countries, there were the Old Ones.. that were the ones that kept men in line, and would simply curse them, to keep justice alive as corruption took its seat in high places..with corrupt leaders of the ages..So they became justice, the dark Mothers work aye indeed, dark does not mean 'evil' until the burnings..Did that make them 'evil' in today's world I suppose so, in Oblivion's world is that line so clear anymore..

 

Choices, one acts like this game forces, one to be 'good', so they rebel and try to become all evil..The game forces nothing unless you submit to it, or just play your game..in the moment of where you are..

 

Deadric worship good or evil, some perhaps, some just mischievous, I say nothing is so black and white so to speak although I hate usuing those terms.. Grey areas all over if you look.. depending, for what of Azura..

 

Even Necromancy all 'evil' not necessarily so..Play the Origin of the Mages Guild mod by giskard…

A real eye opener to the grey areas, which you get to as Arch Mage change if you so wish, and redo the Mages Guild, from thee ground up, with the possibility of overturning his ruling on Necromancy and Vampiric guilds, and their place in Cyrodill. Now there's a power position worth pursuing..

 

So..since you all want to have this debate, think for a moment..'Good' and 'evil' based on today's real world term, since those that define that those terms are biased anyway usaully..unless we are talking real psycho-sociopathic stuff.. That is sick, but still do not count in this world of Oblvian.. There will always be, exceptions to the rule, who decides, power pure evil as a decision, are doomed to fail, aye its is a proven fact..in any world incl Oblivion..

 

In the eyes of the Imperial Empire, perhaps it is defined.. so since when has the empire of any world, been a valid judge of what is good and what is evil, right or wrong, usually based in prejudice usually biased relgious ideals..interwoven with political ideologies..

 

So on the premises, pure evil, pure good, dose not exist, unless one chooses just to never do anything from their darker moods and moments, or a darker charectors decides never to do a good deed, and just kill, wihtout conscience like the viler creatures, Janus stated himself that have returned to a pure animlistic nature with no conscience..

 

There is your answer if one has no conscience never does a good act, and cares for no one not even a companion, then and only then could one be considered truly evil and that is choice..The narrow minded view of Oh one is in the DB, they are evil..Is nonsense, for I have been and that was just a job, the rest of the time I helped people…So neutral is a more viable description for most people, who at times give into the darker sides, and sometimes their lighter sides, but does true 'evil' or true 'good' for that matter exists..for us as players..

 

Plain and simple vampires are not 'evil' by nature, unless they choose to have no conscience..

 

For those of you searching for pure evil, to conquer and defy all, and rule, as all evil empires have realised, that which is based on congest alone, usually at some point are doomed to fall..and fail..If you care nothing for the people who serve you, one day they will betray you..

 

For as the original Q asked do darker charectors need love..If not they are doomed to fail..that is the crux of this matter..

 

Once it was asked..is better to be feared, or repsected.. All true great rulers that have gained some wisdom will choose respected, or they are doomed to fail..For they are feared not respected, to be respected would call for some acts of kindness towards those that serve them, and if none exists...Pure evil charectors, can never run an empire for long, they are doomed to fail, be betrayed or assassinated.

 

Historically it's a proven fact, and so in Oblivion it is also…Its not that good prevails…I believe its neutrality prevails..For its that fine line, between the two…that usually gains respect, for they neither demand all goodness, or all evil, but for others just to be.

 

So what is the purpose of a debate that has nothing to do with the orginal Q asked of us.

 

There I had my piece, its why I do not post in forums, I get drawn in, and always regret it…better I stay silent..My blunt Honesty isn't always well received...its why I I keep saying I will not got to forums, only reply about mods..so I give it a go and see..for this is an International one and a bit more opened minded..hopefully..

 

Debate is healthy, but round and round going nowhere, trying to debate a moot point, based on different perspectives usually leads to arguments, IME..and leads nowhere…

 

Now can we get back to the original Q. asked by the person who asked it…as fairness to the one who started this topic..Is love necessary for those who lean more to the darker side..Or is that who needs love Q just to scary to address..

 

Fencing is fun, and we love it here, wher I am from, as is honest challenges to think, as long as its fair play..and good craic.. :wink:

 

My answer we all do, no matter what path we choose, or we are doomed to be betrayed fall, and fail..

 

Cheers mates

 

[myrmaad]

 

<snippage>..

Now can we get back to the original Q. asked by the person who asked it…as fairness to the one who started this topic..Is love necessary for those who lean more to the darker side..Or is that who needs love Q just to scary to address..

 

Fencing is fun, and we love it here, wher I am from, as is honest challenges to think, as long as its fair play..and good craic.. :wink:

 

My answer we all do, no matter what path we choose, or we are doomed to be betrayed fall, and fail..

 

Cheers mates

 

 

Great thoughtful post.

 

I don't know that I think this is so much a question as a commentary. There isn't much for "evil" characters to do, but as Aeryn noted, and has been pointed out throughout the thread, no character is purely one or the other, it's all a matter of gray. My example was of my current character, a person of noble character who still got off on creating a huge riot that caused several deaths. Technically her hands remained clean and she didn't get a "murder" count in her stats, but those people are dead because of her actions, so is that GOOD? The dark side certainly emerges in her from time to time. Sometimes she'll have a decent conversation with a Bandit, who will speak with her with total good will. One day she stood by as one such bandit immediately after exchange of pleasantries with her, pulled out his war axe and attacked Legion Guard.

 

Another day, a similar situation, but this time after the pleasantries, she decided to take out the friendly bandit, because she was certain the good will would deplete when she killed the bandit's comrades.

 

So much gray area, that a my character who's been righteous throughout this play of the game, still has an opportunity to turn and explore the dark side of herself. This is what makes the game fascinating. Even those who play Dark Characters if they play the whole game, do good works through the different quests, an opportunity to explore the light. And the Count is who he is, my character does not (never has) feared him, and she doesn't seem to mind his unique situation.

 

I'll have to download that Mages Guild quest, this is the second time someone mentioned it, and Giskard seems AMAZING. Definitely the mods like those are more fodder for exploring the depths of a character, which makes them so human and to me, so fascinating. And I've been thinking about what kind of character I'd like to create next time.. A Bloodless Orc with no conscience seems to be taking hold. Or a Khajitt based on M'aiq. He's awesome. Some of my current character's favorite people are Argonians. They're very cool and would be fun to explore.

[Sarya]

What kind of lame ranger takes more than three days to find/buy some mandrake? IIRC, it costs two gold at most Mages Guildhalls or Alchemy shops. And even then, if they were good-aligned, they could just head to a chapel. /nitpick.

You know, it takes several game hours in in-game Cyrodiil to travel between neighbour cities and you can always have a little trip to any nearby cathedral and make it not in three days, but in an hour-two. But... if we're talking about roleplaying (and what the hell is point in "evil" without roleplaying?), those trips should be pretended to last for weeks. Beside, what if a ranger is badly hurt? In Oblivion you can contact Porphyric Haemophilia through a sturdy metal shield when being hit by a dagger. But if we add roleplaying-intended realism... then most likely you're beaten, bitten and bleed bad. Even if you're conscious and can get to somewhere in time, then you are just in no condition to think of deeper diseases besides preventing sepsis. Rangers, huh? And what about those poor five on Azura quest? They weren't really evil, but... no running to chapels or chasing mandrake, just... locking themselves in a mine?! What kind of masochism is that if the cure is so easy as you say?

[LoginToDownload]

I didn't say a situation where vampirism could be forced was impossible, and did label it as nitpicking. I suspect people took more from my statement than what I meant... However, I still see some problems with your example. For one, even as far as internally consistent roleplaying goes, the countess of Leyawiin heads all the way to Chorrol-about the farthest distance between two cities you find in the game-and back at the middle of every month. IIRC, less than three days there and back. Aside from that, a ranger surviving wandering into a vampire den heavilly wounded would, in all probability, be after they wiped out the entire den. If the ranger was too heavilly wounded to make it back to a city in other circumstances, even if it was daytime at the time, they likely would be unable to get "clear" of the den and avoid death before nightfall. It seems unlikely a ranger would've raided an entire den without having a Cure Disease effect, instead of ducking out while they were healthy and preparing properly. Then said ranger would have to have no healing items or spells, which seems very improbable for someone who spends so much time away from civilization, and the variety of roleplaying would have to assume resting doesn't heal (Which would further add to the improbability of a ranger having no method of self-healing).

 

In the event that the ranger does make it back to civilization-near death-before turning, the chapel's full healing is still a perfectly logical destination. Even if the ranger didn't think of this, it would have to be an incredibly close shave for them to manage healing and turn before thinking of getting the disease looked at. In fact, depending on the roleplaying specifics, they would have to fall asleep in-between (which, come to think of it, isn't all that improbable). I don't really understand the Azura worshippers' actions myself, but Bethesda's stories have been patently ridiculous at times, (remember The Siren's Deception?) and I prefer not to put too much stock in them. I'm simply trying to say that you need very special circumstances to become a vampire unwillingly.

[Sarya]

Yeah, I saw her. Dropped my jaw when I saw Her damn Highness walking on her FEET on some bandit-infested road ALONE. Her escort followed her half a mile behind, consisting of a SINGLE guard and a serving wench. Really realistic. Well, this game has a lot of such flaws, it's not new.

 

And... I was going to shoot her when I spotted her. I now regret I didn't :(

 

Now on unwillingly... I never played Daggerfall but I read one story, a book from there I suppose. It was about a warrior who went to save an abducted girl. When he found her, she was killed by a vampire, who also wounded the warrior and escaped. And that man didn't even have any idea about what was happening... until three days ran out and he remained ignorant even a little after that until he got a bit of a shocking revelation. That belongs to TES lore.

Now, if the PLAYER knows about vampirism and that it should be cured in three days or that he should avoid healing if he wants his character to be one, then it doesn't mean that his character knows the same and always realises the situation.

 

Back to the topic, an undoubtedly evil way of becoming a vampire is when the character is not only willing to be one, but seeks it out and is completely prepared to sacrifice others to prolong his life, not even simply save it.

[LoginToDownload]

Porphyric Hemophilia does have symptoms, though, so you'd think being mildly ill (Drain Fatigue 5. I did say mildly...) after being beaten up by vampires would be enough to tip a ranger off. If there are no symptoms, it's just more reason to snack on some mandrake root after you're done dealing with them.

 

Geez, vampiric infection is weird, though. Vincente can pass it on whenever he likes, Gilen Norvalo (but then again, he's inept) says a vampire bite has a small chance of infecting the victim, the player can't infect squat, the Gray Prince's dad seemed to wish he could infect his love, and wilderness vampires can infect 50% of the time by hitting someone with a warhammer. That has to translate into every bite being infectious. Other Oblivion books also suggest being fed on while sleeping does not, in fact, result in puncture-marks, so you have to wonder how it works...