Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[MacSuibhne]

Thinking more along these lines...

 

The likes and dislikes that people harbour in themselves...whether it be lust or love, contempt or compassion...are their own business. It is what makes us human. No one can know the context or the reason.

 

What people actively do or pursue is another matter, that is certain.

 

But if racism is simply a matter of entirely internalized contempt or disdain...even hatred...then I submit to you that there is no difference between those who charge racism and those they are charging.

 

In fact, I would go so far as to assert that public condemnation is a more active expression of hatred and intolerance than the simple harbouring of it.

 

And for those enamoured of the nearly inevitable Orwellian State of politically-correct thought police...who feel compelled to label someone a bigot or a racist because of what they might be thinking or might not be doing, or what someone else said about them, I wonder how that differs from what the Thalmor are doing with their patrols and suppression of Talos?

 

Oh! Of course...how silly of me...no beheading or torture.

 

Yet...

 

(Google the French Revolution.)

Edited June 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

Dunmer...are still banned from living outside the grey quarter,...

 

Is that a fact? Is there an actual...edict, law, statute...ban on Dunmer leaving Windhelm, buying a farm, or even moving to another house that may be for sale?

 

Can you cite something besides hearsay that documents such a ban and further indicates that Ulfric is responsible for enacting it?

Edited June 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fleesaurus]

Dunmer...are still banned from living outside the grey quarter,...

 

Is that a fact? Is there an actual...edict, law, statute...ban on Dunmer leaving Windhelm, buying a farm, or even moving to another house that may be for sale?

 

Can you cite something besides hearsay that documents such a ban and further indicates that Ulfric is responsible for enacting it?

 

Instead of 'citing', how about we LOOK at how Dunmers are living in the game? It's been a number of years since Ulfric took over as Jarl and the Dunmer are STILL living in the slums.

[MacSuibhne]

...

 

sorry for duplicate post

Edited June 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

Instead of 'citing', how about we LOOK at how Dunmers are living in the game? It's been a number of years since Ulfric took over as Jarl and the Dunmer are STILL living in the slums.

 

So...am I reading this right? What you are "seeing" and how you're interpreting it, trumps everybody else's seeing?

 

I see the Dunmer living in a part of the city that was, if my reading of the Lore is correct, made available to them when they were refugees from a natural catastrophe...with nowhere else to go. And this was 150...no, let me spell that out--one hundred and fifty...years ago.

 

They are still there. That's sad. But the Lore also states that the Dunmer are "clannish"--preferring their own kind--and are distrustful of other races.

 

You don't need something as contrived as "racism" to understand that they may be there by choice. In fact, the Lore almost makes that a certainty.

 

You can see things differently than I do...that's fine. But when people see things differently than the writers of the game or the hard, empirical evidence supports, I begin to suspect they are just...well, "seeing things."

Edited June 18, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[Archone]

Everyone's been showing you empirical evidence, MacSuibhne. You're being like all the conspiracy theorists of the past... twelve years, in two differant presidential administrations, who accused the standing president of being illegitimate and/or participating in some unholy conspiracy, instead of simply pointing at their actual mistakes and/or misdeeds like all their more rational and clear headed opponents. (and please, I beg of everyone, no comments about Bush OR Obama here. We're here to discuss Skyrim)

 

And in persisting in this behavior, you're doing the same thing that the political fanatics have achieved. You're making all the pro-Stormcloaks look bad by association. They've been able to argue intelligently and without condescending and insulting responses. You have yet to show that ability.

 

That's what war is about. It isn't tiddley-winks.

 

No, war is about controlled force to achieve your objectives. It's about making the enemy do what you want. It is not about slaughtering innocent civilians and people who don't want to get involved. Not only is that considered war crimes in our world, but even in Tamriel killing civilians is the exact opposite of what a smart general does in order to achieve their objectives. If a village gets wiped out because they didn't side with Ulfric, the other villages aren't going to side with Ulfric. They're going to side with the Empire.

 

My character is a Redguard. When I challenge Galmor as to whether my race an issue in joining the Stormcloaks he dismisses the whole idea

when I played as an Orc and joined the Stormcloaks, Galmor made it clear that he was willing to overlook my race as long as I killed Imperials. He never did proclaim tolerance for other races; the Dovahkin is a special case if you join the Stormcloaks because the Dovahkin is a killing machine and Galmor likes seeing Imperials being killed.

 

(which is one more example of why Galmor's advise is hardly the best. It's not about killing the enemy. It's about achieving your objectives. The objective being: freedom of religion, and independence from Thalmor oppression. And considering that many of the Imperials in the Legion are citizens of Skyrim and/or Nords - such as the daughter of the Alchemist in Solitude - Galmor's doing almost as much to hurt Skyrim as the Thalmor are)

 

And not tax them as highly as the rest of his people.

 

By what agonized definition is that fair?

 

The definition that laws ought to be evenly applied and all ought to be equal under said law. I.e. every definition of fairness that every rational person would agree to.

 

But Torygg, Tullius, Titus and the Thalmor are not responsible for any of their actions--Titus for craven capitulation and betrayal; Tullius for racism against Nords; Torygg for stupidity (not just ignorance--stupidity), and betrayal; and the Thalmor for their genocidal racism and arrogance.

 

I'm curious as to whether you think someone else has made posts that no one else can read, or if you're... trolling. No one ever said that. Titus gets assassinated for his capitulation. Tullius is not racist against Nords; he is merely disrespectful towards their traditions. Torygg we never even meet; he's the guy Ulfric killed before the game even started (and his widow notes that Torygg idolized Ulfric and probably would have sided with Ulfric had Ulfric shown up looking to talk instead of looking to duel). The Thalmor are the only group besides the dragons that everyone agrees it's okay to kill (and even then, not ALL the dragons. There's one dragon in particular whom both players and the NPCs in the game would agree should not be killed).

 

But... you did finally start citing some actual claims here. Now I can respond to them accordingly.

 

The most xenophobic and racist faction in Skyrim is the Thalmor. The Empire actively "cooperates" with the Thalmor; it aids and abets Thalmor activities against Skyrim citizens. Or looks the other way...which functionally is the same thing.

The Empire only cooperates with the Thalmor because the Altmeri Dominion beat the Empire in a war and is ready to commit genocide on a moment's pretext. They're cooperating while they bide their time and try to prepare to get some payback. It's not "active" cooperation. It's "we do what they say because we have families we love, but whom the Thalmor see as vermin to be exterminated if we annoy them." You'll note that Ulfric is apparently a bachelor. Things are different when you have families and children as well as enemies who think kids are fair targets.

 

The Khajits are not allowed in any city in Skyrim, Imperial or otherwise.

 

They're allowed in most of the cities. There's a sneaky fellow in Solitude right outside the tavern. There's a student at the mage's college. There are two differant khajiit caravans that wander the cities, but they don't enter town only because they're constantly moving from city to city in order to conduct business. They would likely be allowed within the city walls of almost any city other than Windhelm, because they have goods and gold and travelers with money are always a welcome sight in taverns and shops.

 

The grey quarter in Windhelm is 150 years old. It is not Ulfric's doing. He "inherited the economy".

And now it is his to change as he wills. If he so chooses. When he was made Jarl, at no point did anyone tell him, "you shall govern the city... but you are forbidden by divine law from allowing the Dunmer to resettle or to change any laws."

 

The Lore says the Dunmer are "clannish" and "distrustful" of others.

Again, this is nothing compared to Morrowind. The Dunmer in Skyrim are far more tolerant than the ones of centuries prior, especially the ones in their homeland: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:House_Telvanni

The Dunmer in Skyrim have been living outside of their homeland for a few centuries now. They've been partially assimilated. They'd be further assimilated if they were allowed to be.

 

Whichever side you choose, you will be among racists... and esp. as an Imperial, cooperating with Skyrim's most racist people....furthering their racist agenda.

 

Actually, the Imperials are probably the second or third least racist of all the races. Or they certainly were in the previous games, as well as in the lore. The Khajiit believed in killing outsiders who entered their jungles. Argonians regarded all the mammalian people as prey. The Bosmer are probably the only Mer to not have started out saying "we're better than everyone else, so accept it if you want me to honor you by allowing you to continue to exist." The Nords started out as bloodthirsty axe wielding psychos who believed that brawls in the meadhall were no fun if it only involved fists. The Empire was created by embracing tolerance and diversity, creating alliances and respecting other cultures. The only race that I can think of that is more tolerant than the Imperials are the Bretons, who are themselves halfbreeds, part elf, part human.

[BrettM]

They're allowed in most of the cities. There's a sneaky fellow in Solitude right outside the tavern. There's a student at the mage's college. There are two differant khajiit caravans that wander the cities, but they don't enter town only because they're constantly moving from city to city in order to conduct business. They would likely be allowed within the city walls of almost any city other than Windhelm, because they have goods and gold and travelers with money are always a welcome sight in taverns and shops.

The sneaky fellow in Solitude is an Argonian, Jaree-Ra, not a Khajiit. I have never seen any Khajiit inside any city in Skyrim, with the possible exception of J'Zargo, if you consider the College part of Winterhold. The Khajiit with the three caravans (Ri'saad, Ahkari, and Ma'dran) are, in fact, not welcome in the cities. At least one of them (Ahkari?) will tell you so, as will Ysolda in Whiterun. ("Worst thing is, nobody wants them in the cities. Nobody trusts them.")

 

It's very hard to describe this as "racism" though, because they are demonstrably what they are accused of being: thieves and/or skooma dealers. Ahkari will tell you that she brought her caravan to Skyrim and joined up with Ri'saad after getting into trouble with the law in a couple of other provinces. All of the caravans deal skooma and moon sugar. J'Zargo will tell you that he is interested in acquiring new magics -- preferably small items that are easy to conceal and will not be missed immediately.

 

Since there are no Khajiit NPCs around that are unquestionably good guys and not associated with a caravan, we have no idea whether they would face any prohibition on entering a city. The only indication we have is that a Khajiit player character may freely enter any city, including Windhelm.

[MacSuibhne]

...

 

As I was playing the game to day, I was asked by the Spirit of Hircine to "sacrifice" Sinding. I was gratified that I was given the dialog option to say "He's done me no wrong. I will not kill him."

 

That's my basic motivating principle---I refused the Rites of Bothia. I will not do the Theives Guild. I destroyed the Dark Brotherhood. I killed the woman who wanted me to feast on human flesh. I will not do the Molag Quest.

 

Maybe it is a personality flaw, maybe I was just raised differently,

 

But...

 

As long as your standards for evidence consists of behind the hand whispers, gossip from disgruntled NPC's, and inferences from listening only to those who agree with your predetermined POV, we will never agree.

 

As long as your standards of fairness exclude the presumption of innocence and embrace guilt by association (your own words and indicative, in my mind, of a deeper misapprehension of the situation), we will never agree.

 

As long as you're fine with the Thalmor patrols and the shadow judiciary and are willing to write off the lives and the liberty of the occasional citizen to mollify a thug-like, police state, occupying force, we will never agree.

 

As long as you believe the interminable excuses, the disingenuous sophistry, and the craven submissiveness of the Empire to the AD...and are unwilling to see that for all intents and purposes the Empire surrendered to the Dominion and is effectively an occupied state under marshal law imposed by the Thalmor, we will never agree.

 

As long as the aspirations of the people of Skyrim to choose their own destiny, and be free of such entanglements and the stain of collusion and appeasement, take a back seat to temporizing and expediency that only benefits the bureaucrats who run the Empire and the Dominion...who not only wish to destroy the Empire but exterminate all non-mer in Tamriel...we will never agree.

 

There is no common ground.

 

If I thought you were alone in these beliefs I would have greater hope for the future of Skyrim...and RL Western Civilization.

 

Done.

Edited June 19, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[breakwind]

If you were going to play the game the same way you live your life, it will be a very short game indeed. The thieves guild and the dark brotherhood are the 2 most enjoyable quest lines in the game. The land of Skyrim is a land of racial hatred, intolerance of differing beliefs and a land of voilent thugs who find pleasure in dismembering people at their whim. The priests and priestesses, also reveal a hatred of others, though not all, definitely not a place for the person of morals. As for the question posed by this thread...I have killed both Ulfric and Tullius, never received a bounty nor got arrested for doing either act, so according to the rules of the game I guess the question is un-answerable. Just enjoy....

[MacSuibhne]

If you were going to play the game the same way you live your life, it will be a very short game indeed. The thieves guild and the dark brotherhood are the 2 most enjoyable quest lines in the game. The land of Skyrim is a land of racial hatred, intolerance of differing beliefs and a land of voilent thugs who find pleasure in dismembering people at their whim. The priests and priestesses, also reveal a hatred of others, though not all, definitely not a place for the person of morals. As for the question posed by this thread...I have killed both Ulfric and Tullius, never received a bounty nor got arrested for doing either act, so according to the rules of the game I guess the question is un-answerable. Just enjoy....

 

 

I understand that...I'm just too old and it rubs against my grain. I can't do that.