Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[breakwind]

Fair enough MacSuibhne.....I'm no spring chicken myself and understand it is hard to be a cold hearted person, if it is not natural, but I must say that playing the dark brotherhood in Oblivion unleashed something in me....... :devil: :biggrin:

[Archone]

 

As I was playing the game to day, I was asked by the Spirit of Hircine to "sacrifice" Sinding. I was gratified that I was given the dialog option to say "He's done me no wrong. I will not kill him."

 

That's my basic motivating principle---I refused the Rites of Bothia. I will not do the Theives Guild. I destroyed the Dark Brotherhood. I killed the woman who wanted me to feast on human flesh. I will not do the Molag Quest.

 

Maybe it is a personality flaw, maybe I was just raised differently,

 

 

Actually, I don't do the thieves guild either. Nor have I done the Dark Brotherhood quests. I have always had a serious problem with playing "evil" characters. When I played Fallout 2, my one serious attempt to play a genuinely evil character got to San Francisco and was... denied the opportunity to fight for Lo Pang, on the grounds that she wasn't evil enough. (I couldn't even stay in the negative karma range!)

 

 

But...

 

As long as your standards for evidence consists of behind the hand whispers, gossip from disgruntled NPC's, and inferences from listening only to those who agree with your predetermined POV, we will never agree.

 

As long as your standards of fairness exclude the presumption of innocence and embrace guilt by association (your own words and indicative, in my mind, of a deeper misapprehension of the situation), we will never agree.

 

As long as you're fine with the Thalmor patrols and the shadow judiciary and are willing to write off the lives and the liberty of the occasional citizen to mollify a thug-like, police state, occupying force, we will never agree.

 

As long as you believe the interminable excuses, the disingenuous sophistry, and the craven submissiveness of the Empire to the AD...and are unwilling to see that for all intents and purposes the Empire surrendered to the Dominion and is effectively an occupied state under marshal law imposed by the Thalmor, we will never agree.

 

 

Okay, now I'm challenging you to provide two examples. First an example of Ulfric specifically renouncing the bigotry of his supporters. And the second being any point where I ever said that I was ever fine with the Thalmor (here's a hint: it won't be the post where I talk about how much fun it is to provoke Thalmor into letting me kill them), or where I focused on "gossip" instead of blatant statements of "this is what Ulfric is doing to us."

 

As long as the aspirations of the people of Skyrim to choose their own destiny, and be free of such entanglements and the stain of collusion and appeasement, take a back seat to temporizing and expediency that only benefits the bureaucrats who run the Empire and the Dominion...who not only wish to destroy the Empire but exterminate all non-mer in Tamriel...we will never agree.

 

In your entire self righteous and judgemental post, this is the only thing you have said that is factually true. That is literally the crux of the moral dilemna in choosing Stormcloak versus Imperials. Do you focus on the desire of the Nords to fight for their freedom of religion and to stand alone? Or do you focus on the Empire attempting to maintain cohesion and rebuild in order to finally stand against the oppressive and genocidal conquerors? That is the choice presented (unless you choose to avoid the civil war and eventually force both sides to negotiate a truce until Alduin is defeated).

 

If I thought you were alone in these beliefs I would have greater hope for the future of Skyrim...and RL Western Civilization.

 

Actually, I have a great deal of hope for RL western civilization. I'm actually reminded of a Canadian who sends her friends editorials about how the United States is headed for collapse in six months from...whenever she shares said editorials (it's been six months from collapse for at least eight years now, apparently). I also have great optimism regarding Skyrim... because you know they're going to make another game. Probably set someplace where the focus can be on fighting Thalmor. That's going to be fun.

[sukeban]

@Archone

 

There definitely won't be a forthcoming example of Ulfric putting that wack, racist, hobo Nord in his place, simply because said example does not exist. Ulfric is demonstrably more of a "Skyrim for the Nords" type of hombre, but, as a Nord leader in the homeland of the Nords, his attitude toward the other races really isn't that difficult to comprehend. I'm definitely not attempting to say that Ulfric is right in turning a skeptical eye toward the other races, but rather that you see this same sort of pattern even (especially?) in our modern world, even in mature, Western democracies. Really, it happens anywhere different cultures are thrown together within the confines of the same nation state, the same broader society, likely for humanitarian or (more likely) economic reasons.

 

Witness France and its regard for Algerian immigrants. Witness Germany with its Turks. Witness Sweden and Norway with their Iranians. Witness the United States with Mexicans, Great Britain with Indians and sundry other Middle Eastern peoples. Witness Japan with... historically anybody non-Japanese. Witness China with Africans. Witness Gulf Arab states with Indians or those from poorer Middle Eastern nations. Witness Russia with... anybody non-Russian. Point being that when very much different populations are thrown together, over time hostility and resentment does tend to build, especially when the economy turns sour and/or there's a war on (questioning the loyalty of the non-natives). It is therefore easy to be a "racism grand-stander" from the perspective of a nation with very low net immigration or exposure to other cultures (Korea, Luxembourg, Finland, Denmark, etc.), as you are commenting on an issue that you have never really had to deal with.

 

I would venture that Ulfric is really the only Jarl that has to even deal with "immigration" (defined really as beast race or Elven) on a wide-scale. Certainly Solitude is about the most homogeneous population out of any of the major towns in Skyrim. Who is to say what would happen in Solitude if suddenly half of its inhabitants became Dunmer or Argonian. Would the Nords of Solitude welcome them with open arms or... as is more likely, view them as a threat to their way of life, their traditions, and to their economic station? I think the latter scenario is FAR more likely, given what we know of human nature.

 

Really, the entire Stormcloak side of the map is far more racially diverse than the Imperial side. Riften has a huge population of Elves and Argonians, Winterhold has the college. True, Dawnstar has but its one lonely Elven court mage. However, I think there are more Elves and beastfolk is Windhelm than there are in the entire Imperial side of the map, making the Imperial side about the equivalent of Korea commenting on race relations in the United States, aka swimming in waters that they know beyond nothing about.

 

Which is not to say that Ulfric's position is correct or anything like that. Rather, I'm just trying to apply the real world to Tamriel. Most nations like/can accept token "cute" minorities (interesting "other people" found in small numbers), but when those minorities begin to enlarge and threaten the preexisting ethnic majority's perceived grip on political and/or economic power... that's when issues begin to arise. Solitude does not have that "problem." Windhelm does. Solitude can talk whatever noise it wants to, but until Solitude is 60% Dunmer + Argonian, I don't really know how much attention we really need to pay their policy proscriptions for racial harmony.

 

TLDR; Ulfric needs to lighten up and get down with some Rodney King "Can't we all just get along." At the same time, I ain't brookin' no high and mighty Imperial jive about about race relations in Windhelm, as it is fundamentally an issue that they have never had to grapple with directly.

Edited June 20, 2012 by sukeban

[MacSuibhne]

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat — "Proof lies on him who asserts, not on him who denies" "Imperial" Emperor Justinian

[Archone]

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat — "Proof lies on him who asserts, not on him who denies" "Imperial" Emperor Justinian

 

Yes. And you asserted that I was fine with the Thalmor.

 

Also, I've laid enough evidence against Ulfric to warrant an actual "trial" (if such a notion can apply to the perceptions of the beliefs of an NPC in a game). You want to defend him... provide one example of him refuting the bigotry of his advisors and friends and underlings.

[imperistan]

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat — "Proof lies on him who asserts, not on him who denies" "Imperial" Emperor Justinian

 

Yes. And you asserted that I was fine with the Thalmor.

 

Also, I've laid enough evidence against Ulfric to warrant an actual "trial" (if such a notion can apply to the perceptions of the beliefs of an NPC in a game). You want to defend him... provide one example of him refuting the bigotry of his advisors and friends and underlings.

 

I haven't exactly followed the back and forth between you and Mac, but what exact obligation does Ulfric have to refute anyone's bigotry?

 

I'll say it again, you're crazy to insist that Ulfric be the Martin Luther King Jr. of Tamriel.

[BrettM]

I haven't exactly followed the back and forth between you and Mac, but what exact obligation does Ulfric have to refute anyone's bigotry?

I've been wondering the same thing. The demand appears to exhibit the same kind of bogus "with us or against us" thinking that is all too prevalent in both Tamriel and our world. If Ulfric doesn't use his bully pulpit to denounce bigotry, then he must be assumed to support it, right?

 

Nobody ever seems to notice the obvious parallels between Windhelm and Whiterun. In Windhelm you have Rolff and his sidekick bullying a Dunmer woman because of her race and yelling out drunken insults in the Gray Quarter at ungodly cow-milking hours. In Whiterun you have Olfrid and his son bullying and teasing a poor old woman because of her political beliefs and yelling out insults against her family in broad daylight while stone sober.

 

To me, both situations are equally repulsive. However, you can't hang a convenient label like "racism" on what is happening in Whiterun, thus branding it a thought crime. Some people are more interested in the motive than in the act, and the same act somehow becomes more evil if it can be claimed to be the result of an unapproved motive. Yet I see more deliberate, focused cruelty in Olfrid's mocking of a concerned mother than in Rolff's unfocused bigotry.

[Archone]

I haven't exactly followed the back and forth between you and Mac, but what exact obligation does Ulfric have to refute anyone's bigotry?

 

 

An excellent question. In answer: Ulfric doesn't have to be the MLK of Tamriel. And though he SHOULD be saying, "guys... knock it off. Those Dunmer and argonians khajiit are helping to fund our war effort," he doesn't have to. But... if he doesn't, he's showing an acceptance of and agreement with the racism of his compatriots. It's not that it's a crime. It's simply showing that aspect of his personality. Like I keep saying (in spite of those who want to claim that Ulfric is the Nordic messiah... when that would actually be the Dhovakin), both sides have points in favor of and against siding with them. I'm not condemning Ulfric, I'm just pointing out that he's not wearing a pristine white hat here.

[sukeban]

An excellent question. In answer: Ulfric doesn't have to be the MLK of Tamriel. And though he SHOULD be saying, "guys... knock it off. Those Dunmer and argonians khajiit are helping to fund our war effort," he doesn't have to. But... if he doesn't, he's showing an acceptance of and agreement with the racism of his compatriots. It's not that it's a crime. It's simply showing that aspect of his personality. Like I keep saying (in spite of those who want to claim that Ulfric is the Nordic messiah... when that would actually be the Dhovakin), both sides have points in favor of and against siding with them. I'm not condemning Ulfric, I'm just pointing out that he's not wearing a pristine white hat here.

 

My analogy would be this:

 

Donald Trump is a fool who says that Obama's birth certificate is a fake and insinuates that he is actually a Kenyan. Donald Trump also supports Mitt Romney.

 

Given that Donald Trump is a fool (something that I should hope we all agree on), it is good politics for Mitt Romney to distance himself from Donald Trump, lest other people begin to think that he agrees with him. By not denouncing Donald Trump, Mitt Romney is not saying the he agrees with Donald Trump, but he is making a political statement by holding back. Said political statement is that he is afraid of alienating those who do believe Donald Trump, and that he wants their support in the election.

 

So then, whilst Mitt Romney might not believe what Donald Trump says about Obama's birth certificate, he desires the support of those who do. That doesn't make Mitt Romney a "birther," but it does make him a candidate that who accepts "birthers" within his ranks. Likely this does not reflect favorably on the man.

 

For Ulfric, merely substitute "racism" for "birtherism."

 

TLDR; Ulfric is not a racist himself by not denouncing some of the Windhelm Nords, but it does mean that he is okay with having racists among his supporters. We can judge for ourselves how important that is.

[MacSuibhne]

 

TLDR; Ulfric is not a racist himself by not denouncing some of the Windhelm Nords, but it does mean that he is okay with having racists among his supporters. We can judge for ourselves how important that is.

 

Well...how important is it? Not only is he trying to secure independence for Skyrim--somerthing on the order of George Washington trying to defeat the most powerful nation on the earth with a small, unorganized, underfunded militia--but every other group, every other leader, on Tamriel is demonstrably OK with having racists among them. [i would even venture to say that every leader in the real world has racists working for or with him/her.] The Thalmor are the most xenophobic and racist group on Tamriel but how many people actively, even eagerly, defend the Empire and its "best boy" relationship with them?

 

Where is the hue and cry?

 

In fact, where is the honourable distaste for slander and guilt by association and trial by gossip?

 

Where is the distaste and condemnation for 30 years of spineless collusion and oleaginous betrayal--having engineered the Markarth Incident and then reneging on promises and arresting the prime agent? where is the outrage at the Thalmor patrols thumbing their noses at Imperial or Skyrim law and summarily judging, torturing, and executing friends, neighbors, sons, and fathers?

 

Sure, some people kill Thalmor patrols...but one has to ask--in a game where killing is almost the raison d'etre for playing, how does that signify? Esp. if you defend or make excuses for the perpetrators at all other times?

 

It strikes me as hypocritical...or relative morality at its most repulsive. What's sauce for the goose has to be sauce for the gander.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne