Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[breakwind]

If you have to justify moral reasons for doing things in a game, maybe you are playing the wrong game? Skyrim is all about escaping from the real world for a while and living a fantasy. I don't need a reason to kill anything in Skyrim, I just need a weapon. As for Ulfric being racist, I believe that the Argonian dock workers at Windhelm would agree that he is. My motto from the start of the game has been, kill them all and let Talos sort them out (except Paarthurnax...never could kill him)

[sukeban]

Where is the hue and cry?

 

In fact, where is the honourable distaste for slander and guilt by association and trial by gossip?

 

Barking up the wrong tree here if you think I'm defending the Legion. Not sure if that's meant just as a general polemic though? Probably the latter.

 

In any case, you're undoubtedly right when you say that any movement has fringe elements as hangers-on among its supporters. That's probably inevitable for any cause once it grows large enough. That said, whilst it's not mandatory, it would be nice if more leaders distanced themselves from the more sketch voices in their crowd. It doesn't make them in agreement with those voices, but it does show a certain lack of resolve to confront them. To me, that reflects on character.

 

But, of course, it would make Ulfric too easy of a CW choice if he went around saying 'Skyrim is big enough for us all, we only want the right to self-determination." If that were the case, you'd see something like 90/10 in favor of the Stormcloaks rather than the 50/50 that it is now. Crafty on Bethesda's part to spur discussion.

 

And it goes both ways, of course. Tullius would do well to repect Nordic culture a bit more than he does, as well as tell his minions to be less surly to the local population. Tullius is an Imperial chauvinist, which is arguably worse than Ulfric's Nord chauvinism given that we are in Skyrim rather than Cyrodiil. I wouldn't get that mad to find a Chinese chauvinist in China, but the Chinese chauvinist becomes intolerable if he is attempting to peddle his views (or enforce them militarily!) in Japan.

 

Ultimately, I believe in the Stormcloak cause more than I believe in Ulfric personally. Ulfric is a flawed vessel, but there aren't any other vessels readily available. It would be kind of an awesome Command & Conquer-style expansion if Ulfric turned against the Dragonborn (fearing our power) and framed us for treason against Skyrim. Then we could clear our name through valorous deeds before sweeping aside Ulfric and coming to rule Skyrim for ourselves.

Edited June 22, 2012 by sukeban

[BrettM]

As for Ulfric being racist, I believe that the Argonian dock workers at Windhelm would agree that he is.

They would also agree that Brunwulf is not a racist and that they are better off with him on the throne. Yet, no matter which man is jarl of Windhelm, the Argonians are restricted to the docks. So it would seem that their opinion is based on something other than the reality of how they are treated, given that there is no objective evidence that they are better off in any way under Brunwulf. I have little respect for opinions that have no appreciable grounding in fact.

 

Someone who patronizes another race is just as racist as someone who hates them. However, we have no proof that Ulfric hates them, while we do have proof that Brunwulf patronizes them. Brunwulf is condemned by his own words when asked if he will lift the restriction. We do not know Ulfric's motive for the restriction, and hatred is not the only possible explanation.

[imperistan]

I haven't exactly followed the back and forth between you and Mac, but what exact obligation does Ulfric have to refute anyone's bigotry?

 

 

An excellent question. In answer: Ulfric doesn't have to be the MLK of Tamriel. And though he SHOULD be saying, "guys... knock it off. Those Dunmer and argonians khajiit are helping to fund our war effort," he doesn't have to. But... if he doesn't, he's showing an acceptance of and agreement with the racism of his compatriots. It's not that it's a crime. It's simply showing that aspect of his personality. Like I keep saying (in spite of those who want to claim that Ulfric is the Nordic messiah... when that would actually be the Dhovakin), both sides have points in favor of and against siding with them. I'm not condemning Ulfric, I'm just pointing out that he's not wearing a pristine white hat here.

 

 

And if Skyrim was in our world you might have a point, but it isn't. Tamriel's current cultural status is extremely different than ours and is still back in the rough equivalent of our own European dark ages, when bigotry wasn't even a real word yet. So to criticize Ulfric for accepting racism is rather stupid, because everyone and their mother in Tamriel either accepts racism (because thats all they know and ever will know in their lifetimes) or are just inherently indifferent to racial differences.

 

Something you also have to remember is that racism in the real world has no actual basis in anything other than irrational thoughts and emotions. In Tamriel, however, the different races are in fact extremely different from one another and they can all be considered distinct and separate species from each other.

 

So even if there was a cultural revolution brewing it would take thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years for racism to even have a dent put in it in Tamriel. And thats because racial differences are real, and hard-coded. I already brought this up once elsewhere, but think about how you see other animals in the woods compared to yourself. That's how the vast majority of people in Tamriel are going to see members of other races, who are in general a different species from them altogether. Sentience isn't going to matter either, particularly if that person is predisposed (in whichever way one could end up as such) towards being a racist.

[robanybody2000]

Call it what you want (racism, bigotry) it is still part of Ulfric's personality althou not everybody in Skyrim is an adept of his mentality. I forone don't mind his attitude (for it is normal for a "rebel" to act this way), i don't aprove of his judgement. To start a civil war that will lead to the death of half the people in Skyrim either way it ends, fighting against men, mer, beasts or evreything and everyone who is against you for the sake of worshiping a god (out of 9 divines and all the daedric princes)...that is a little disturbing. Closest revolution that i've witnessed was in 1989 wich was still a waste of time even if it managed to overthrow a regim, because 2 years from that time it could have ended exactly the same without the loss of lifes. I'm not saying that same rules apply to Skyrim but nevertheles killing half of Skyrim's population for a "free religion" cause is just stupid.

[MacSuibhne]

...killing half of Skyrim's population for a "free religion" cause is just stupid.

 

No offense intended but this seems almost emblematic of the position Imperial apologists take...in one form or another. It is so strikingly at odds with the notions of honour and freedom and responsibility (in my view, expedient even intolerant) that I grew up with, that I wonder if there aren't two different species posting here.

 

Religion is at the focus of many people's lives. We don't have to even consider the objective truth of religious beliefs to understand that such beliefs afford a critical comfort to people as well as providing a "center"...a touchstone...that stabilizes people, esp. in hard times. Religions are also often inseparable from Traditions and these too are important to some people. Beliefs that are so central to people and so critical, are not relinquished easily, they're worth defending. Who are you, who is anyone, to say that these things are stupid?

 

It is easy to say "stupid" (or "racist" or "bigoted" or "douchebag") but harder to deal with the importance that "principles" assume in people's lives...some people's. Because at bottom, it is not just dismissing 'one god too many' or even religious freedom. Rather the issue is indeed intolerance and oppression and, in the case of Thalmor patrols (which, are the manifestations of that intolerance), the dismissal of those lives lost to that oppression. Paraphrasing..."It's just one guy at a time" and "it's a necessary emollient to assuage the Thalmor"...etc., etc., yada yada.

 

But some people forget that every time you point a finger, accusing someone of "racism" or "stupidity", three fingers are pointing back at yourself.

 

The post I made above asking "where is the outrage?" (post 390) is fundamentally about principles and being true to them even if it means opening your eyes to an uncertain and unpalatable reality. Almost every post I have made to this board comes down to the idea that if you are willing to give up one freedom, you will be willing to give up two and if you're willing to give up two...

 

It's not just about being a milk drinker, it's about actually becoming livestock.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[robanybody2000]

See, now this is a normal debate in wich i like taking part because it shows people's beliefs and in a small manner how they were raised opinionating arrownd Skyrim's leadership. Yes you make a valid poit of religion beeing at the focus of many people (almost all of them if you think), i just think that starting a civil war based on an politheist worshiping is not that great of a cause. If i were put in an imediate dilema of free (refering to worshiping not imprisonment, torturing and all that) or dead, I have to admit i will have to think hard on that. It's probably because i don't see religion and freedom in the same sentence. I personaly belive that a good decision taken at the right time is worth much more than imediate violence for fast acknolegment of ones purposes. Having this in mind i haven't seen Ulfric taking any smart decisions during the game (exept maybe by leaving Elisif the Fair as jarl but that was in greater part thanx to your character).

[MacSuibhne]

It's always been a normal debate for those of us not wrapped up in being defensive. And tolerant enough to accept other people's ways of speaking or presenting their views.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it's the message not the manner--always a clue that someone doesn't want to deal with the issues.

 

Glad you've got something to chew on. Maybe re-read my post again after you've had time to think some? Might even want to re-read some of my others, or, even better, BrettM's (always sensible) or Imperistan's (credible and accurate to a fault)...see if they don't inspire a little re-evaluation.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[fraquar]

Call it what you want (racism, bigotry) it is still part of Ulfric's personality althou not everybody in Skyrim is an adept of his mentality. I forone don't mind his attitude (for it is normal for a "rebel" to act this way), i don't aprove of his judgement. To start a civil war that will lead to the death of half the people in Skyrim either way it ends, fighting against men, mer, beasts or evreything and everyone who is against you for the sake of worshiping a god (out of 9 divines and all the daedric princes)...that is a little disturbing. Closest revolution that i've witnessed was in 1989 wich was still a waste of time even if it managed to overthrow a regim, because 2 years from that time it could have ended exactly the same without the loss of lifes. I'm not saying that same rules apply to Skyrim but nevertheles killing half of Skyrim's population for a "free religion" cause is just stupid.

 

Thats because you don't understand the importance of religion in an era with:

no radio

no TV

no Internet

no phones

no planes (or other high-speed modes of travel)

no distractions other than those that are directly on your doorstep.

 

Religion is probably the one thing other than maybe a Bard's performance that brings people together in Skyrim, and the latter is only in your specific neck of the woods.

[imperistan]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the message not the manner--always a clue that someone doesn't want to deal with the issues.

 

This so very very hard. Can't imagine how much it pisses me off to see people denounce me purely because I don't wrap my posts in a bubble of a "good" attitude.