Why Ulfric was right to kill the High King

[Archone]

But there are people who frequent these forums who are so self-absorbed that everything turns personal right from the get-go. You can't really have an intelligent discussion with such people not only because they've got their defensive barriers manned and ready but because nothing is good enough to make them stop and think.

 

To them I offer my apology for any offense I may have given--past or present.

 

I accept your apology in spite of the condescending tone and failure to provide any links, quotes, or facts to maintain your defensive barriers.

 

 

In fact, in Ulfric's case, he actively proves that he's crap at anything else. He alienates even half the population in his own city for not being Nords. Which predictably produces a "why should we help? it's not OUR war" reaction. And has a right hand man who gives you pretty much a "why the heck do you want to join if you're not a Nord" as the first thing when you join. He also makes it clear if you ask that basically he's not sending his own soldiers on such trials likely to result in death, and coming after that questioning as to what you're doing there if you're not a Nord, it comes across as trying to get the non-Skyrim guy killed. It invariably gave me the idea, "Why the heck DO I want to fight for these guys?" I mean, you could be a blond and pale Breton, and you still get the line that you're not a Nord. I mean, even the Nazis gave thousands of Jews certificates of being almost Aryan enough if they looked the part, but for Ulfric and the gang apparently it matters that you're not exactly Nord.

 

I will concede that Ulfric definitely screwed up by not getting more people on his side with a platform of "let's kill Thalmer." Let's face it, that's like offering water to people in the desert and alienating potential customers because of your sales pitch. Though in the case of the initial missions, he doesn'really send you there because you're a non-Nord, he sends you because you're the new guy and they don't know what you can do. In fact, the Legion gives you a similar starting mission. If you return, they express surprised delight and let you continue to work for them despite not being a part of their official military with its rigid heirarchy. The Stormcloaks are simply more informal about it. "Let's send the new guy. The new guy came back alive? Awesome. Let's send the new guy out again. Another success? Damn... I'm LIKING the new guy." Even Ulfric's racist advisor starts addressing you as a friend by the time you're leading the charge against Imperial camps.

 

That's... actually what I meant. It's not a problem. He chose out of pragmaticism and logic.

 

Doubtful. You spun it as a slight against Ulfric, hence me asking why it was a problem.

 

I apologize if it came across that way.

 

Torygg was a young king, nothing more. Not a bootlicker, not a spineless toad. He DID accept Ulfric's challenge, after all (unless this is like the TRADITIONAL sort of Nord duel referenced in one of the books from Oblivion, where you walk up to the other guy, say, "thou art no brother of mine," and chop his head off before he can blink). He wasn't waiting on anyone's whims. He heard "that guy you hero worship is here to see you" and eagerly invited him in to talk.

Accepting Ulfric's challenge was the only thing really worthy that Torygg did, but thats only because he accepted a duel he was clearly couldn't win. But as I've already explained, he was still stupid for doing it.

 

Like I said, there's two possibilities. Either Torygg accepted the duel because this was his hero and he felt hurt and humiliated by the challenge, or it was a traditional traditional duel and the challenge was "you're a bad king," while openly brandishing an axe and waiting for Torygg to get up and draw his weapon on the spot before the "Fus-rah-do"ing and the killing blow.

 

And yes, we are supposed to take Elisif's word for it. If we're to take Ulfric's word for the things he claims, then we can surely extend the same courtesy to Elisif. Otherwise the theory that Ulfric is actually a secret Thalmer double agent becomes a lot more plausible -- and I for one would rather treat the character with more respect than that.

 

I've never taken Ulfric's word for anything, so I don't see your point here.

Yes, but as Macsuibhne said (even if he doesn't provide any actual examples), you have to go with what's actually stated by the characters and what's written in the books... or else it really is just conjecture and speculation. We might as well claim that the Supermutants from the Fallout setting are secretly manipulating the Thalmer, or that the Daedra lords are actually from Star Trek's Q continuum, or something like that. I think it's best if we take Ulfric's words, as well as Elisif's, at face value. I mean, even the Thalmer don't lie about their intentions and motives (mainly because they don't have enough respect for humans to give them even a veneer of courtesy).

 

So I guess you didn't listen to Tullius' speech? Perhaps you don't see how most people who've played the earlier games would have went in on the presumption of the Empire being the general good guys, and thus accepting the Imperials as the general good guys, even though most would not have actually realized that there was a new Empire quite separate and more importantly very different from the old one now, if they even knew there was a new Empire. (not everyone read the books after all) And because of that they would have heard the word "rebellion" (uttered by Lokir not minutes into the fist conversation of the game) and automatically seen it as a bad thing.

 

You probably ought to read up earlier in the thread, where I stated that I've played almost all of the TES games, starting with Arena (which I beat with an Argonian Spellsword, because Arena predated the custom classes and Skyrim's the first one to do away with classes entirely). I started with the Empire being a combination of evil (on account of Jagar Tharn having usurped the Emperor) as well as the best hope for peace in the world (because Tamriel is a pretty rough place to live in). Then I was an agent of the emperor sent to Daggerfall. Then I was a prisoner, a criminal, sent to Morrowind to serve my sentence by performing community service (i.e. helping the Blades and eventually becoming the Nevarine - though of course they didn't know that would happen when they started sending me on assignments). Then I was the criminal who took up a weapon to aid the fleeing Emperor and watched him die, before devoting myself to finding, protecting, and serving his heir and saving the Empire. Now we fast forward a few centuries (which was a shock in itself, when all the prior games took place during or shortly after the reign of Uriel Septim IV), and the Empire is dominated by a bunch of nazi elves. The rebellion thing... personally, I thought, "what's going on? Who is rebelling, and why?"

 

They do have a right to say that it isn't their war, but not for the reason you think. And lets also remember that the Nords who yell at that Dunmer woman are drunken beggars. They are hardly representatives of Ulfric himself. (and please don't make me have to explain why Ulfric has no obligation to be Martin Luther King Jr., the Tamriel Edition.)

Actually, popularity with other races would have been a sound strategic move. Insisting on tolerance towards the Dunmer and other races would result in having those races being more willing to fight alongside the Thalmer. By contrast, the Legion isn't just Imperials. There are a LOT of Orcs on the empire's side, and have been for centuries. And Orcs, Redguards, and Nords are the three primary "big tough fighter" races. (And Hammerfell is still fighting the Thalmer, so there's one more example of how working together would achieve the optimal goal of... defeating the Thalmer)

 

Remember that these are Dunmer, the former most xenophobic race on Tamriel, and they still largely are anyway. Do we not remember the anthem of the Ordinators and other guards from Morrowind?: "We're watching you........scum." So let's not pretend either that things would be much different if the roles were reversed.

 

Oh yes, I remember the Ordinators. Though I always thought it was more because they were extremely aggressive cops who felt that way towards anyone who wasn't on "the force." Some cops have a regretable tendancy of treating civilians that way. "You're not a cop, therefore you're a suspect. Even if we don't know about any crimes... yet." Though most of the Dunmer in Skyrim seem to have left all that behind. They're still pretty arrogant - but at least they're not like House Telvanni used to be. I've yet to meet a Dunmer female in Skyrim who reacted increasingly negatively to me with every conversation purely on account of my character not being a dunmer female.

 

You do realize that there is a proper Legion in Skryim right? Legion's make up the Imperial presence in the Empire's provinces, and it was a full Legion that was present in the country when the civil war was started.

Which emphasizes why Ulfric is actually hurting his own cause, here. "Never do for yourself what you can get your enemy to do for you." He's hurting the Empire - which makes it easier for the Thalmer to further dominate everyone. Hence the Thalmer note about Ulfric actually being a double agent working for them. Which I still assert to be their attempt to take credit for something they had nothing to do with. Ulfric is a well intentioned extremist, who fights "so that all the fighting I've already done isn't for nothing."

 

And yet the Stormcloaks still win if you side with them. You can't use the PC's presence as an excuse because that's just one person that in reality isn't anything that special other than his natural affinity for the Thu'um. Beyond his voice, any man could match his prowess.

 

So its either we're going use the PC as a MacGuffin so we don't have to actually think hard about this or we're going to accept that either A, the Empire can't throw the resources into the war (which lends itself to a point for the Stormcloaks, because they would then clearly have the resources. Or at least, more than the Empire) or B) that the TES universe doesn't work like the real world and that means wars won't work like they do/did in the real world.

 

...actually, I'm considering making a character whose main strength is the Thu'um. Because up to this point I've made characters who were basically walking death even without the Thu'um. The Stormcloaks had a female Orc who wore heavy armor she smithed and enchanted herself, carried an axe (edit: WARHAMMER, sorry) that could kill any dragon in two hits, and generally killed any humanoid with one hit. The Imperial run through is with a male Breton whose magical abilities means that he lays waste to entire hordes with his lightning spells. Then I'll try my "peacemaker" runthrough with the Redguard "paladin" who uses lots Blocking and a weapon and shield style. Let's face it, the PC in any TES game is going to become something nigh unstoppable, whether it's a Dovahkin whom dragons know to fear, or a Blade who charges into Oblivion gates and butchers every Daedric warrior between him and the top of the tower, or a Nevarine becoming a new messiah and taking on false gods... even in Arena, once I had gathered enough artifacts and spells and quested for the Oghma Infinium a few times, I got to the point where Jagar Tharn was annoying rather than dangerous.

 

Freyrgjurd, I highly encourage you to try some of the older games. They're all very... ambitious. And they give you a greater appreciation for what was achieved with Skyrim. Every TES game is full of bugs and issues - because they're always reaching for the stars. You have to admire Bethesda for that. Besides, older games tend to be very cheap, and a lot of fun. :)

Edited June 30, 2012 by Archone

[Moraelin]

I'm not saying the missions are different. I'm saying that at least the Imperials don't manage to rub me the wrong way in the process by asking what I'm doing there if I'm not <insert master race.>

 

Thing is, if you're anything else than a Talos fanatic, you have to admit that life in the Empire is ok. So if I can get some money out of them, and get pardoned, that's already a decent choice for a non-Nord. Fighting for the Stormcloaks though is just not giving me the same vibe that everything is going to be ok in the end. It doesn't take much ranting about Nords and "sons of Skyrim" and whatever, to give me the idea that it has all the promise to be a worse alternative for a non-Nord in the long run. Even if I get Ulfric to like me, what happens if he dies and maybe a bigger fanatic takes the throne? Do I have any guarantee that the next guy on the throne doesn't take a more radical "elves OUT!" line? Plus, you know, it's just not getting me motivated to fight for them if I'm on the bad side of their xenophobia.

 

Plus, to return to why I don't think Ulfric would realistically have a chance in the long term, there's their stating that they don't want mercenaries. Apparently they want only fanatics, or something. Which is nice in theory, but he'll have a smaller army in the end. When the empire starts pouring gold into hiring every mercenary they can get into the auxilia, I don't see things going that great for Ulfric.

[Archone]

 

 

Thing is, if you're anything else than a Talos fanatic, you have to admit that life in the Empire is ok.

 

Not...really. The Thalmer are pretty nasty - and they're pretty blatant about it. The weaker the Empire gets, the nastier they'll become. They're fairly open about their plans to eventually reenslave humanity, the way the ancient Aldmeri Dominion once did (way way back when. When Talos became a god by... defeating the Aldmer). Not to mention that religion... in our world we get pretty sensitive about religious freedoms. But in Tamriel, religion isn't just philosophy and morality and rituals. To quote Terry Pratchet, "it's tough to be an atheist in a world where the gods exist and throw stones through the windows of the houses of atheists." Pray at a shrine of Talos and you're reminded that he's still very much a deity.

 

Plus, to return to why I don't think Ulfric would realistically have a chance in the long term, there's their stating that they don't want mercenaries. Apparently they want only fanatics, or something. Which is nice in theory, but he'll have a smaller army in the end. When the empire starts pouring gold into hiring every mercenary they can get into the auxilia, I don't see things going that great for Ulfric.

 

Yes. Ulfric's an idealist who makes a lot of mistakes. If the Dovahkin doesn't side with him, he's unlikely to last long.

[Moraelin]

Realistically, it wasn't ok to be an atheist or the wrong shade of religion in any society before very modern times. Even in Rome denying the gods of the state was a capital offense, punishable by death. Just ask those who got to star in the Christians vs Lions championships ;) And even not worshipping the gods from the approved deities list, including exactly who's an aspect of whom, could get you denied joining the army, which for a non-citizen was the main way of gaining citizenship. And that was one of the most open minded societies at the time.

 

Basically I said that life in the empire was OK, not that it was great. It still beats being the useful idiot of some xenophobes that think my kind is second class because of not being a Nord.

 

Basically, dunno, way I see it, it's like being a barbarian in ancient times. The Romans would let you be a citizen with all rights and privileges if you fight for them, while the pre-Alexander Greeks would think you're a sub-human fit only to be a slave just because you're not a Greek. Neither is the perfect society, but if I had to be the useful idiot of one or the other, I'd go with Rome.

[fleesaurus]

We should have a flashback scene of Ulfric being forced to drink Torygg's piss, and how Torygg is actually a scheming a**hole who killed all his competitors and forced everyone to think he's a kind and competent High King. Makes you relate to Ulfric more lol.

[imperistan]

Like I said, there's two possibilities. Either Torygg accepted the duel because this was his hero and he felt hurt and humiliated by the challenge, or it was a traditional traditional duel and the challenge was "you're a bad king," while openly brandishing an axe and waiting for Torygg to get up and draw his weapon on the spot before the "Fus-rah-do"ing and the killing blow.

 

You are greatly exaggerating Torygg's apparent admiration for Ulfric, as well as making a rather large assumption as to how the duel actually went from start to finish. Fact of the matter is, only the very end of the duel was witnessed by the others. Everything else leading up to the end was only between the two combatants. So you can't sit there and portray Ulfric as just stumbling in like some violent, unpredictable gorilla that comically smashed Torygg into the ground with a club.

 

Yes, but as Macsuibhne said (even if he doesn't provide any actual examples), you have to go with what's actually stated by the characters and what's written in the books... or else it really is just conjecture and speculation.

 

Yes, but you also have to see past the inherent bias and recognize what degree of accuracy the source you're looking at will actually have. Only then can you really see what really happened, as otherwise you're muddying whatever truth exists.

 

I mean, even the Thalmer don't lie about their intentions and motives (mainly because they don't have enough respect for humans to give them even a veneer of courtesy).

 

But they also only say it within the confines of their own fortifications or in the battle cries against someone they clearly believe they'll be able to kill.

 

I started with the Empire being a combination of evil (on account of Jagar Tharn having usurped the Emperor) as well as the best hope for peace in the world (because Tamriel is a pretty rough place to live in).

 

An evil Battlemage taking over doesn't turn the Empire evil. It may pit them as antagonists but that doens't make them evil. The army isn't evil just because its following its general's orders to be as such.

 

we fast forward a few centuries (which was a shock in itself, when all the prior games took place during or shortly after the reign of Uriel Septim IV), and the new Empire is dominated by a bunch of nazi elves.

 

Fix'd.

 

Insisting on tolerance towards the Dunmer and other races would result in having those races being more willing to fight alongside the Thalmer.

 

Or, it would do nothing when you realize that racism isn't actually a relevant problem in Tamriel. The Dunmer ruin it for themselves, the Khajiit are universally untrusted and no army is going to be had out of them regardless, and there simply aren't enough Argonians outside of the Black Marsh to make a significant difference one way or another.

 

Unless you're thinking that the relative few straggler members of the beast races and Dunmer refugees (that have no stake in anyone's war, and most of whom will need significant resources put into training them. They will literally lose nothing no matter who wins. Lets remember that the Thalmor's plans are to eliminate mankind, not "everyone who isn't an Altmer") will actually make a real difference in the eventual war against the Dominion then no, "tolerance" towards other races isn't going to do anything to help.

 

And this isn't going into how tolerance doesn't solve the issue of racism and is a totally stupid concept.

 

" Though most of the Dunmer in Skyrim seem to have left all that behind. They're still pretty arrogant - but at least they're not like House Telvanni used to be. I've yet to meet a Dunmer female in Skyrim who reacted increasingly negatively to me with every conversation purely on account of my character not being a dunmer female.

 

People also don't really talk to you much unless they give out a quest in Skyrim.

 

He's hurting the Empire - which makes it easier for the Thalmer to further dominate everyone.

 

Read my previous posts. I'm not explaining why this is wrong again.

 

...actually, I'm considering making a character whose main strength is the Thu'um. Because up to this point I've made characters who were basically walking death even without the Thu'um. The Stormcloaks had a female Orc who wore heavy armor she smithed and enchanted herself, carried an axe (edit: WARHAMMER, sorry) that could kill any dragon in two hits, and generally killed any humanoid with one hit. The Imperial run through is with a male Breton whose magical abilities means that he lays waste to entire hordes with his lightning spells. Then I'll try my "peacemaker" runthrough with the Redguard "paladin" who uses lots Blocking and a weapon and shield style. Let's face it, the PC in any TES game is going to become something nigh unstoppable, whether it's a Dovahkin whom dragons know to fear, or a Blade who charges into Oblivion gates and butchers every Daedric warrior between him and the top of the tower, or a Nevarine becoming a new messiah and taking on false gods... even in Arena, once I had gathered enough artifacts and spells and quested for the Oghma Infinium a few times, I got to the point where Jagar Tharn was annoying rather than dangerous.

 

 

....k. I'll wait until you actually respond to what I said then, I guess?

 

Basically I said that life in the empire was OK, not that it was great. It still beats being the useful idiot of some xenophobes that think my kind is second class because of not being a Nord.

 

It'd be easier if you just admit that you just don't like the Stormcloaks rather than trying to make it sound like you have an objective point to make.

[Freyrgjurd]

Freyrgjurd, I highly encourage you to try some of the older games. They're all very... ambitious. And they give you a greater appreciation for what was achieved with Skyrim. Every TES game is full of bugs and issues - because they're always reaching for the stars. You have to admire Bethesda for that. Besides, older games tend to be very cheap, and a lot of fun. :)

 

I ought to do that. Just bought Oblivion and found amusing to talk to Uriel that I heard in Skyrim.

It's good to see the rest of the history in action.

 

Soon I'll buy Morrowind, to have more pieces to conjecture and speculate :)

[Archone]

Like I said, there's two possibilities. Either Torygg accepted the duel because this was his hero and he felt hurt and humiliated by the challenge, or it was a traditional traditional duel and the challenge was "you're a bad king," while openly brandishing an axe and waiting for Torygg to get up and draw his weapon on the spot before the "Fus-rah-do"ing and the killing blow.

 

You are greatly exaggerating Torygg's apparent admiration for Ulfric, as well as making a rather large assumption as to how the duel actually went from start to finish. Fact of the matter is, only the very end of the duel was witnessed by the others. Everything else leading up to the end was only between the two combatants. So you can't sit there and portray Ulfric as just stumbling in like some violent, unpredictable gorilla that comically smashed Torygg into the ground with a club.

Okay, I think I see the problem here. It's been implied that we're projecting our expectations onto Tamriel's landscape. Well, I think you're doing it now. We're all saying "duel," but that doesn't mean we're talking about a formal European style affair, with seconds and a choice of weapons and whatnot. The only examples we've seen of duels in TES are fairly immediate and brutal affairs. In a number of incidents in the games, the PC may be challenged by duelists - and the result is an immediate battle with the foe. I'm tempted to cite the examples in Skyrim of mages walking up to the Dovakhin in town and challenging him to duels... but I'm honestly uncertain as to whether that's canon or one of the mods I've installed.

 

Yes, but as Macsuibhne said (even if he doesn't provide any actual examples), you have to go with what's actually stated by the characters and what's written in the books... or else it really is just conjecture and speculation.

 

Yes, but you also have to see past the inherent bias and recognize what degree of accuracy the source you're looking at will actually have. Only then can you really see what really happened, as otherwise you're muddying whatever truth exists.

 

The book I was quoting was very pro-Nord, praising the king who chopped off his brother's head as a liberator for his kingdom.

 

 

I started with the Empire being a combination of evil (on account of Jagar Tharn having usurped the Emperor) as well as the best hope for peace in the world (because Tamriel is a pretty rough place to live in).

 

An evil Battlemage taking over doesn't turn the Empire evil. It may pit them as antagonists but that doens't make them evil. The army isn't evil just because its following its general's orders to be as such.

I didn't say the soldiers were evil - but you weren't going anywhere near the imperial city until you had all the pieces of that staff.

 

we fast forward a few centuries (which was a shock in itself, when all the prior games took place during or shortly after the reign of Uriel Septim IV), and the new Empire is dominated by a bunch of nazi elves.

Fix'd.

No, twisted. It IS the same empire - but an empire that's been attacked, beaten, and humiliated. It's an empire that wants to do good, but is under pressure by a very vile foe.

 

Unless you're thinking that the relative few straggler members of the beast races and Dunmer refugees (that have no stake in anyone's war, and most of whom will need significant resources put into training them. They will literally lose nothing no matter who wins. Lets remember that the Thalmor's plans are to eliminate mankind, not "everyone who isn't an Altmer") will actually make a real difference in the eventual war against the Dominion then no, "tolerance" towards other races isn't going to do anything to help.

No, the Thalmer are focused on humanity first because manking is their "ancient foe" by virtue of having fought and won their freedom and refusing to know their place as good little slaves. Do you really think a race that will wipe out 80% of the sapients on the continent is going to stop and say, "naw, we don't need to kill the rest?" They've already genocided the Bosmer in Valenwood. To put this in perspective: in Arena, Orcs were NOT a playable race, but another species of NPC combatant. Argonians, Bosmer... these guys travel across the Empire for a reason, because it benefits them. The Khajit caravans know full well that the Empire is the best thing that ever happened to them.

 

Legate Rikke makes it clear - she's a Daughter of Skyrim, a Nord, AND a loyal Imperial subject. For most of the citizens of the Empire, they'd argue this:

 

" Though most of the Dunmer in Skyrim seem to have left all that behind. They're still pretty arrogant - but at least they're not like House Telvanni used to be. I've yet to meet a Dunmer female in Skyrim who reacted increasingly negatively to me with every conversation purely on account of my character not being a dunmer female.

 

People also don't really talk to you much unless they give out a quest in Skyrim.

In prior games it was random gossip for most NPCs. Now it's just a random selection of one liners. It's a game mechanic change, really.

 

He's hurting the Empire - which makes it easier for the Thalmer to further dominate everyone.

Read my previous posts. I'm not explaining why this is wrong again.

Read Sun Tzu. I'll let him explain it to you.

 

 

....k. I'll wait until you actually respond to what I said then, I guess?

All right, let me try it more bluntly. The Dovakhin doesn't need the Thuum to be walking death. The Dovakhin is going to have a combination of spells, stealth, archery, one handed and/or two handed weapons, as well as magical armor and equipment, until he can take down Alduin. Anyone who can take down Alduin is not going to be impressed by mundane warriors.

 

Basically I said that life in the empire was OK, not that it was great. It still beats being the useful idiot of some xenophobes that think my kind is second class because of not being a Nord.

It'd be easier if you just admit that you just don't like the Stormcloaks rather than trying to make it sound like you have an objective point to make.

It'd be easier if you would look at my previous posts where I make it clear that both sides have both pros and cons. I never said I disliked the Stormcloaks, I specifically said that they had genuine grievances but were seeking redress in an ill chosen manner. I said the Thalmer were "nazi elves" (And I highly doubt anyone here ever didn't already come to a similar conclusion long before they started posting here), and you don't beat nazis - elven or otherwise - by going it alone. You form an alliance and you stomp them and then you notice that historical enemies are suddenly contemplating cooperative engineering and economic projects.

 

Stormcloaks are not bad. Stormcloaks are just angry. And not listening to clearer heads. Which is a shame - even a lot of Ulfric's enemies are quick to point out that he was a good man and a champion of the Empire, before the rebellion.

[imperistan]

Okay, I think I see the problem here. It's been implied that we're projecting our expectations onto Tamriel's landscape. Well, I think you're doing it now. We're all saying "duel," but that doesn't mean we're talking about a formal European style affair, with seconds and a choice of weapons and whatnot. The only examples we've seen of duels in TES are fairly immediate and brutal affairs. In a number of incidents in the games, the PC may be challenged by duelists - and the result is an immediate battle with the foe. I'm tempted to cite the examples in Skyrim of mages walking up to the Dovakhin in town and challenging him to duels... but I'm honestly uncertain as to whether that's canon or one of the mods I've installed.

 

You're still just assuming how the duel went. This isn't something that we can determine via other, indirect sources. We need an accurate, unbiased first person account in order to know what actually happened. Anything else is just going to ultimately end with us projecting our own views on the matter over the truth that we don't and can't know. We can figure out a timeline for the duel, getting somewhat of an idea of how long it lasted (it lasted long enough for some actual sword play to occur before people showed up) but beyond that all we know is that at the end of the duel when the court showed up, Ulfric used the Thu'um against Torygg and killed him.

 

For instance, I could give a fairly interesting version of events. Ulfric shows up in Torygg's court, and Torygg is alone. Ulfric converses with him, perhaps as relative friends. Eventually they agree to a friendly duel, and they fight for a while. And once the court shows up, Ulfric makes his statement with the Thu'um and strikes down Torygg. This would follow in line with how the Imperials see the duel.

 

Another: Ulfric shows up and directly issues a challenge to Torygg's rule. Torygg could either take it rather seriously, perhaps because he could have been a study of old Nordic tradition and thus understood what was going on, or he could take it less seriously and see it as a joke or friendly challenge between relative friends. Perhaps Torygg simply thinks it a ploy for revenge. So Torygg agrees to fight Ulfric and they go at it. Once the court shows up, Torygg gets struck down by the Thu'um, with Ulfric making his statement to Skyrim, and Ulfric slays him as he lays staggered by the shout. This follows with the Stormcloak line of thinking.

 

And of course, it could have been that Ulfric did in fact come to ask Torygg to rebel against the Empire, and Torygg finally took a stand as a man and said no. Ulfric then challenges them and they fight, perhaps because Torygg follows the same line of thinking he could have in the Stormcloak version, and after some minutes of swordplay, the rest of Torygg's court shows up and this is when Ulfric decides to put an end to the duel (namely because if it went on any longer, he probably would have been arrested, as I'm sure he would have realized) and uses the Thu'um against Torygg (he may have used the voice because guards surrounded him. Perhaps, his use of the Thu'um was a move not against Torygg, but to distract and nullify the court so that he could flee after slaying the King), slaying him afterwards.

 

Or, it could have been some other version of events. We simply can't know.

 

The book I was quoting was very pro-Nord, praising the king who chopped off his brother's head as a liberator for his kingdom.

 

And?

 

I didn't say the soldiers were evil - but you weren't going anywhere near the imperial city until you had all the pieces of that staff.

 

And? This doesn't make the Empire during Arena's events evil.

 

No, twisted. It IS the same empire - but an empire that's been attacked, beaten, and humiliated. It's an empire that wants to do good, but is under pressure by a very vile foe.

 

No, its not the same Empire.

 

Do you really think a race that will wipe out 80% of the sapients on the continent is going to stop and say, "naw, we don't need to kill the rest?" They've already genocided the Bosmer in Valenwood.

 

All Mer have a common ancestry. This includes Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, and Orc's. Its a return to the time of the Aldmer that the Thalmor idolize, and that means the unification of all the mer that the Aldmer evolved into back into that single race of elves. This is why Talos is being attacked. They're slowly trying to reverse the accomplishments of Mankind on Tamriel, and reversing Tiber Septim's ascension into godhood is their first goal. Undoing the Empire itself would be next. (At first it was the other way around, but then we had the utter terribleness that was the Great War, which ended with the Thalmor switching goals around)

 

Those they kill, like those in Valenwood, die not because they're not Altmer (note, I'm talking of elves. Men are being killed by the Thalmor regardless), but because they disagree with the Thalmor. Everyone who disagrees with the Thalmor is going to be marked for dead by them at one point or another.

 

For most of the citizens of the Empire, they'd argue this:

 

Except they wouldn't because its the total opposite. The different races all had their own technological innovations independent from the help of any of the previous Empires. The Empires have only ever served the capacity of uniting Tamriel. It was never a case of one country annexing another and introducing fire.

 

Read Sun Tzu. I'll let him explain it to you.

 

I have read Sun Tzu. His teachings aren't relevant here. As I said, don't make have to explain this to you.

 

All right, let me try it more bluntly. The Dovakhin doesn't need the Thuum to be walking death. The Dovakhin is going to have a combination of spells, stealth, archery, one handed and/or two handed weapons, as well as magical armor and equipment, until he can take down Alduin. Anyone who can take down Alduin is not going to be impressed by mundane warriors.

 

Realistically, the champions of the games were never masters of all trades that could be a thief-mage-warrior all-in-one demi-god. The Nerevarine was the only one that was ever truly close to demi-god status and that's only because he was given extremely powerful artifacts and was immortal except by the hand of another combatant, and who also had the martial skill to kill living gods more than once. But even then, he wasn't going to be a MOAT.

 

No, the champions realistically would have been the "cover guy" sort of people. The Dragonborn would be a Nord Warrior, the Nerevarine a Dunmer warrior, etc etc.

 

That your own personal character could be a MOAT doesn't mean much, for if this was a book we were discussing, the champion wouldn't be a MOAT. That'd just make for god awful storytelling to have your main character be able to do anything and everything. Your PC being able to be a MOAT is pure gameplay.

 

by going it alone. You form an alliance and you stomp them and then you notice that historical enemies are suddenly contemplating cooperative engineering and economic projects.

 

 

Problem is, you're missing the point of the rebellion. If the Empire could actually be used against the Dominion there never would have been a need for a Stormcloak rebellion because the Dominion would have been defeated 30 damn years ago. When they were at the mercy of the Empire and doomed to stalemate against the fractured, single, Legion that stayed behind in Hammerfell.

 

Fact of the matter is, allying yourself with the Empire will completely undermine whatever effort you make against the Dominion. Period. Denying it is denying the reality of the situation for no other reason than to cling to the idea that EMPIRE GOOD. EEMPIRE BIG, BIG IS GOOD HURRP DURRP. I have yet to see an argument about the eventual war from the Imperials that doesn't hinge on the size of the Empire giving it all the advantage and completely ignoring everything else.

 

Stormcloaks are just angry. And not listening to clearer heads.

 

The Stormcloaks may be a passionate bunch, and many of them may not even know what they're really fighting for. But that doesn't matter. The opinion of the lowly soldier doesn't mean anything to the actual ramifications of what they're war is about. The Stormcloaks may no know that they're fighting for the future of Tamriel, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still doing so.

 

And the Imperials are simply burying their heads in the sand.

[Archone]

 

You're still just assuming how the duel went. This isn't something that we can determine via other, indirect sources. We need an accurate, unbiased first person account in order to know what actually happened. Anything else is just going to ultimately end with us projecting our own views on the matter over the truth that we don't and can't know. We can figure out a timeline for the duel, getting somewhat of an idea of how long it lasted (it lasted long enough for some actual sword play to occur before people showed up) but beyond that all we know is that at the end of the duel when the court showed up, Ulfric used the Thu'um against Torygg and killed him.

I can agree with that point, yes. What we do know is that Torygg did in fact admire Ulfric, that a lot of people disapproved of Ulfric killing Torygg (including those who might have allied with Ulfric had he not done so), and that the Thu'um is considered "cheating" as the Greybeards emphasized: the Thu'um is not to be used in battle (the Dovahkin being an exception because he's saving Skyrim, not conquering it).

 

The book I was quoting was very pro-Nord, praising the king who chopped off his brother's head as a liberator for his kingdom.

 

And?

And therefore the bias is in favor of the ancient tradition of duels consisting of "tell them why you're mad, and then chop off their head without further adu." It's not like the Argonian Account, where the Imperial author shows a disdain for the Khajiit attackers. This is a book saying "this is what was done - and I approve."

 

 

No, twisted. It IS the same empire - but an empire that's been attacked, beaten, and humiliated. It's an empire that wants to do good, but is under pressure by a very vile foe.

 

No, its not the same Empire.

Yes, it is. They have not fallen and then reformed. This is not like how the Aldmeri Dominion is a different Dominion than the original enslavers of Tamriel's humanity. It's the same Empire, but one that was attacked by an outside force and forced into a humiliating treaty. There was no time span between the collapse of the Empire that gave us Uriel Septim, and the rise of the Empire seen in Skyrim. It is the same Empire. Only the circumstances and their status as the greatest power of the continent have changed.

 

 

Those they kill, like those in Valenwood, die not because they're not Altmer (note, I'm talking of elves. Men are being killed by the Thalmor regardless), but because they disagree with the Thalmor. Everyone who disagrees with the Thalmor is going to be marked for dead by them at one point or another.

Not realy. The Altmer, Bosmer, and Dunmer always had a bit of a "sibling rivalry" thing going on, even back in Uriel Septim's day. Pretty soon the disagreements are going to involve things like "failure to agree that Altmer are superior to Bosmer and Dunmer," and "failure to agree that Bosmer and Dunmer need to recognize their natural place as subordinate to the Master Race descended from the gods themselves."

 

For most of the citizens of the Empire, they'd argue this:

Except they wouldn't because its the total opposite. The different races all had their own technological innovations independent from the help of any of the previous Empires. The Empires have only ever served the capacity of uniting Tamriel. It was never a case of one country annexing another and introducing fire.

Never said it was. I said it was a case of one country introducing the concept of working together, and as a result they got to enjoy the benefits of Orc warriors and smiths in the legion... Breton battlemages and healers... Nord berserkers in the legion... Bosmer archers... The Empire became big in the first place because they were uniting with others through treaties and alliances, not because the emperors were crushing people beneath their heels. That's why Morrowind still had slaves in the time of the Nevarine - the Empire frowned on slavery elsewhere, but Morrowind wasn't a conquered territory, but rather a province through treaty and mutual respect.

 

I have read Sun Tzu. His teachings aren't relevant here. As I said, don't make have to explain this to you.

Considering you fail to understand where he emphasized the importance of letting your enemy do the work for you (one unit of your enemy's provisions is equal to ten of your own, etc), I'd say you need to read him again.

 

Realistically, the champions of the games were never masters of all trades that could be a thief-mage-warrior all-in-one demi-god. The Nerevarine was the only one that was ever truly close to demi-god status and that's only because he was given extremely powerful artifacts and was immortal except by the hand of another combatant, and who also had the martial skill to kill living gods more than once. But even then, he wasn't going to be a MOAT.

With the exception of Arena, all the game champions were indeed able to become MOATs. In Oblivion you could gain 100s in every skill and (with clever choices and min/maxing) max out your stats. And that's in addition to the use of Restoration and Alchemy. A few seperate spells for cumulative "Fortify Intelligence" and "Fortify Magicka" effects, and then you could fortify... whatever. Strength. Acrobatics. And that's not even touching on the effectivenes of cumulative stacking "weakness to X" effects.

 

That your own personal character could be a MOAT doesn't mean much, for if this was a book we were discussing, the champion wouldn't be a MOAT. That'd just make for god awful storytelling to have your main character be able to do anything and everything. Your PC being able to be a MOAT is pure gameplay.

Unless it was a book about a Mary Sue. Let us all give thanks that Bethesda has never caused vampires to sparkle in the daylight.

 

 

Problem is, you're missing the point of the rebellion. If the Empire could actually be used against the Dominion there never would have been a need for a Stormcloak rebellion because the Dominion would have been defeated 30 damn years ago. When they were at the mercy of the Empire and doomed to stalemate against the fractured, single, Legion that stayed behind in Hammerfell.

 

What mercy? The Dominion made a surprise attack on the Imperial city, slaughtered a bunch of people, and forced a humiliating treaty upon the Emperor. Since then the Empire's wealthier sort have rationalized going along with what's been happening, and now the Nords (and Redguards, and presumably other provinces as well) have decided enough is enough.

 

Fact of the matter is, allying yourself with the Empire will completely undermine whatever effort you make against the Dominion. Period. Denying it is denying the reality of the situation for no other reason than to cling to the idea that EMPIRE GOOD. EEMPIRE BIG, BIG IS GOOD HURRP DURRP. I have yet to see an argument about the eventual war from the Imperials that doesn't hinge on the size of the Empire giving it all the advantage and completely ignoring everything else.

 

Cute. Now copy/paste wherever I said that EMPIRE GOOD, or anything other than "both sides make valid points." And no "fixing" them when you do.

 

The Stormcloaks may be a passionate bunch, and many of them may not even know what they're really fighting for. But that doesn't matter. The opinion of the lowly soldier doesn't mean anything to the actual ramifications of what they're war is about. The Stormcloaks may no know that they're fighting for the future of Tamriel, but that doesn't change the fact that they're still doing so.

Then why ARE they fighting? Most of them are fighting because Ulfric leads them. Because he IS a charismatic leader. The Legion lacks that sort of leader. General Tullius isn't fighting with nearly the same passion because for him, this is just a job. He serves the Empire. Whatever he does, he does it for the Empire. He wasn't born in Skyrim. He probably has spent much of his Legion career in other provinces. For him, this is just a job. If you want to insist on casting Ulfric in the heroic light, you might compare him to the protagonist from "the Fugitive." For Ulfric, the cause is everything. For Tullius, it's just one more challenger to the laws he swore to uphold. (I find Legate Rikke to be a more interested character anyway. Which also emphasizes the differance; the Stormcloak lieutenants are less memorable because Ulfric overshadows them with his charismatic presence)