How RPG affect combat (FO4 vs FONV)

[Honeycone]

Hello!

 

I like both Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 4. There is however one element that FONV got better than FO4, namely its RPG elements. This may be due to the difference in the believably of the world, quality of the NPCs and the dialogue, character building, or perhaps even a voiced protagonist. Regardless of the reason, I discovered that the RPG elements in a game greatly affect my enjoyment of the combat in that game. Strange huh?

 

How I played FONV (combat): I had a very specific way of playing FONV, combat wise. Instead of just going with the armor and weapons that was superior, I chose my equipment around different themes. In addition to the more permanent character building that was in the game (perks, skill points, etc), I created my sort of mini-character based on a theme every time I went out on an adventure. These are some examples of themes and the corresponding equipment I used:

• Cowboy: Hatchet, Revolver, Varmint Rifle / Cowboy Repeater, Dynamite, Leather Armor
• Soldier: Combat Knife, 9mm Pistol, Service Rifle, Frag Grenade, NCR Armor / Combat Armor
• High-tech Mercenary: Combat Knife, Laser Pistol, Plasma Rifle, Plasma Grenade, Combat Armor
• Brotherhood lackey: Super Sledge, Plasma Pistol, Laser Rifle, Plasma Grenade, Power Armor
• etc

How does this relate to Fallout 4? Even though playing this way was very enjoyable in FONV, it isn't in FO4. I only feel inclined to go with the best equipment for the quest. Why is that? Is it due to RPG elements being so light that you don't feel like you're role playing a certain character? Is it because the NPC characters, story and dialogue are worse in quality -> less believable -> less immersive? Is it because... something else?

 

What do you think? Can modding make this aspect of the game enjoyable in FO4? Does anybody recognize this way of playing the game (combat-wise)?

Edited June 29, 2018 by Honeycone

[Honeycone]

Remember how you had to repair and maintain equipment in FO3 and FONV? Could it be so that when being forced to maintain, not waste durability, and generally having to care for your equipment, that those actions built up a sort of sentimental value in those items? And that's why role-playing with different equipment felt more meaningful (because the items themselves had more of an investment put into them by the player)?

[Deleted2433418User]

Dang it! my feelings exactly.. and why i wait impatiently for the NV mod.. f04 is not an RPG,it´s not anything but a glossy surface on top of a crappy game,were it not for mods it would have died years ago.. i love the graphics,hate the story,the "bob the builder" crapola and the settlers in general.. FONV had story,characters and humor.. fo4 has.... graphics.. that´s it.. so yeah.. i get the same feeling.. i WANT to RP.. but i´m not allowed because,the flimsy quest-line supercedes any choice you might wish to make.. so.. you´re right Beth is wrong(and don´t get me ranting about 76)..

[Roentgens]

New Vegas had an "Old West" aesthetic to a lot of the equipment; clothing was rugged yet handsome, and would not look out of place in either civilization or the wild frontier. The designs were prudent and there was a lot of emphasis on fabrics, leathers, pockets, and pouches to carry your gear. The outfits looked as if you could walk a thousand miles in them, most things were made with long term comfort and endurance in mind. There was real scarcity, and very few in the Mojave were decked out in high end equipment.

 

Fallout 4 on other hand is essentially an arms race. The theme always revolves around "bigger, better, and badder". Everyone is wearing cool the cool stuff. The Gunners have armies of guys in pre-war grade combat armor. The Brotherhood has armies of guys in pre-war grade power armor. The Institute has armies of teleporting synths in advanced post-war armor. You could headcanon your own thematic outfit, or you can succumb, and become unstoppable in your facerolling Quantum X-01.

 

This is what Fallout 4 is about, there isn't any scarcity anywhere. It's a theme park pretending to be a wasteland.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Roentgens

[SKKmods]

This is what Fallout 4 is about ... It's a theme park pretending to be a wasteland.

 

Best summary ever. But, somehow I have managed to spend over 2,500 hours in that theme park ...

 

Fundamental question: do you need complex quests and rich NPC dialogue to fuel your RPG experience, or are you happy with a framework world and mechanics that you can fill with your imagination ?

 

FNV is far better for rich quests and dialogue, but those elements have limited replayability. After 1,000 hours the same 'ol becomes tedious, which is why I have published so many Fallout 4 scripted quest bypasses to unlock areas. The combat AI and shooting mechanic is ho-hum.

 

The Fallout 4 world is a super rich canvas to have fun in, ignore or disable the abundance of stuff no problem. The first person iron sights shooting is excellent for a non FPS game, and the combat AI can be tuned to be unpredictable. Just for fun I have been trying out the word with no NPCs (Fallout 4-76 mod) and it makes no real difference because I am ignoring them all anyway now.

 

TL;DR do you respond more to the NPCs or the environment ?

[Roentgens]

 

TL;DR do you respond more to the NPCs or the environment ?

 

NPCs, but both are important in relatively equal measure.

 

I'm going to circle around back to the original post. Which is basically "Why do players make different equipment choices between the games?" I'm feeling that my post was being interpreted as being about which game is better and more replayable, which wasn't the point. But I will now get into it a bit.

 

In my opinion, NV is more thematically consistent, and I would suffer less cognitive dissonance if I were to roleplay in that universe.

 

However, if I was pressed on which game I prefer, the answer would unequivocably be Fallout 4. It has the better engine, better lighting and graphics, better gun play, and better NPC AI. These are essentially the qualities in which it has realized its potential.

 

That doesn't alleviate my disappointment towards some of the narratives and themes of Fallout 4, which I felt received heavy handed treatment.

 

I'm going to put out a short example, which is one of many.

 

Nora has a pre-war law degree. She has a law degree in her pre-war house that you could interact with, and your character will comment about it. Let's say you are playing your character, and you decide to ignore it because it is inconsistent with what you want your character to be. Hell you even skipped it, with the help of SKK's excellent FastStart mod.

 

Now Nora heads out to Sanctuary and meets Codsworth, who hands her Nate's holotape. At this point, Bethesda goes "Just in case you missed that Nora was probably going to be a lawyer, we're going to helpfully remind you again in Nate's holotape that she was probably going to be a lawyer."

 

Again, you can ignore that holotape, but at this point cognitive dissonance is building up, and will only continue to accumulate. A few ingame weeks later, law degree Nora is building fusion generators, industrial water purifiers, and sniping raiders like a wasteland operator. It wasn't physicist Nora, or mechanic Nora, or farmer Nora. It was law degree Nora.

 

Imagine if Bethesda was less heavy handed. Instead of a law degree, it was just a degree, or maybe it was not even mentioned. Nora could have been whatever profession the player decided in-universe, instead of the cookie mould that Bethesda wants the player character to fit. This is just one example, not even the most egregious. I could go into the writing and dialogue too, but that is pretty well tread at this point.

 

I like Fallout 4, a lot. It is a roleplaying game, but it just isn't very good in the roleplaying aspect of it.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Roentgens

[Moksha8088]

Since an RPG is mostly make-believe, couldn't you simply adjust your credulity filters and enjoy all the other enhanced elements of Fallout 4?

[Roentgens]

Since an RPG is mostly make-believe, couldn't you simply adjust your credulity filters and enjoy all the other enhanced elements of Fallout 4?

 

Read this again, maybe it will answer your "question".

 

 

However, if I was pressed on which game I prefer, the answer would unequivocably be Fallout 4. It has the better engine, better lighting and graphics, better gun play, and better NPC AI. These are essentially the qualities in which it has realized its potential.

...

 

 

I like Fallout 4, a lot. It is a roleplaying game, but it just isn't very good in the roleplaying aspect of it.

 

 

I don't have any "credulity filters" that need to be bypassed. I don't roleplay at all in this game, I just play it like a sandbox world and enjoy it for what it is. If Bethesda doesn't take this seriously, then why should anyone?

 

People who play this game as a waifu simulator are the ones who get it. Internal consistency is not valued in this game, so why place restrictions on yourself? Having settlements filled with bikini babes is no more inconsistent than having a kid live inside of a fridge for 200 years and then come out hale, hearty, and mentally sane. Just do whatever you want.

 

OP asked why he didn't have the motivation to use thematic outfits in Fallout 4, instead of minmaxing. I did my take on it, which is basically "There is no real consistency to the gameworld, everyone adheres to the rule of cool, why limit yourself when nobody else does?"

[Algabar]

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I like it. Interesting food for thoughts.

 

Nevertheless, I'd like to disagree with some of the opinions voiced here. IMHO, Fallout 4 is what you make of it. I really like roleplaying, doing different playthrougsh with different player characters, making different decisions at key moments. And this IS possible in FO4.

 

IMHO, the worst part about Fallout 4 is the main story. Making the player a parent looking for a lost child was one of Bethesda's worst ideas ever. It kinda limits your freedom as a player and (if you want to play a somehow consistent character) forces you into certain directions. Every parent would do anything to get his/her child back - meaning you got to play the main story as soon as possible.... Meaning you have to embark on that killing spree and eliminate two of the four main factions, although there's no real reason why e.g. the railroad and the brotherhood shouldn't coexist...

 

New Vegas, however, had the most "open" setting of all Fallout games. And I loved that. Being the courier, who lost his memories, was a wonderful thing from a roleplaying perspective: It simply meant: Be, whoever you want to be. Maybe that was also one of the main incentives to try out different routes in New Vegas, re-imagine your player character... So I think it's not only the "need for power", but also the whole setting, that drives Fallout 4 players into the directions explained above.

 

That being said, there are still lots of possibilities in Fallout 4.The skill system is way more flexible than most people think. To name just a few options: You could use power armor - or not. You could use heavy weapons, bolt-action firearms, lasers, automatic weapons... Even melee builds are extremly viable - and a whole lot of fun! If you don't believe me, just google "Fallout 4 melee builds" or something like that. There's not only one option, but several. To give a maybe somewhat extreme example:You want to become a berserker on psycho and jet, wearing Grognak's costume and wielding that axe? Well, you can...

 

So, skill-wise the game provides opportunities for totally different ways of roleplaying - and fighting. A certain drawback is the lack of fitting "costumes" in the base game. It's in fact some high-tech armors - and then all that worn, dirty wasteland-stuff. My solution for this (minor) issue is simple: Mods. To give just one example: I currently dusted off my old "gunslinger". You know - Revolvers, Stetson, jeans and boots, maybe a long coat... Different revolver mods and clothing mods like e.g. Eli's "gunslinger" outfit make it possible. Okay, I'm currently missing a real "western rifle" like a 19th century Winchester, but apart from that... BTW, I'm playing on "very hard" (survival's just not my idea of fun) and I have no problems fighting my enemies with a good old revolver and the standard hunting rifle...

 

So, TLDR: Especially when it comes to different ways of fighting, there ARE lots of opportunities in Fallout 4. You just need to use them, ^^

[Zzyxzz]

Fallout 4 and Combat

 

Hello,

without comparing Fallout 4 to NV, i want to say, that combat has been always bad. In all games of Bethesda. But it's not their major selling point and I'm fine with that.

 

But yes, i expected a little bit more than the usual stuff. The first time i played FO4, i was quite hyped and it worked quite well. But after getting some level, i've noticed that the game was not that well designed.

When you fight bullet sponges, the fun ends. Fighting a dog with more health than a deathclaw is not fun. Hitting a human with a .50 cal directly to the head and he loses 5% hp.... of course... that were moments where i thought. WTF MAN.

 

But okay... you upgrade your weapon, you get some perks. You deal some damage. You are fine with that. Till the moment, you find a new weapon, without a fancy receiver and you also have no perks. Like seriously. It deals as much damage as throwing a f***ing tin can! Weapons without perks and upgrades absolutely not useable!

 

That was the moment, my mod was born. Better Locational Damage. Developed it now since release and I'm f***ing proud of it. Fallout 4 is now a viable shooter for me. You can use every weapon! Even without perks! Real f***ing headshots and not a "Oh wait, headshots do 2 times damage."! Yes Bethesda! Why you can't f***ing do such a simple thing! And even a f***ing helmet protection that prevents headshots and immediate death (thanks to f4se, i love you guys)!

 

I really wanted to play a raider like character with pipe weapons and such, but it was not possible. You end up with crappy weapons, that can't do anything. Why can't you do that? A RPG should be a game, where you can be everything you want and use everything you want in an effective way. Ofc, pipe weapons are supposed to be weaker, but shooting a bullet should still do a damage, specially when not armored.

 

The crafting system is essential for dealing damage. Its not about crafting your favorite weapon and change your playstyle. There is no difference at all. That was also a major point for me. You walk around, you find a new weapon but you can't use it.

 

To end this post, the player should always have a choice and a chance to try new things. Be what you want, play what you want and have fun!

( I'm still mad, that you can't play a bad character and be a real asshole. A real raider guy. )