i dont use followers becouse of AI

[Stemin]

Another turd polisher ...

 

None of that is irrelevant, it is precisely and totally THE only relevant information required. Skyrim was quite obviously developed as a Console game first and then poorly ported to work on PC's

 

Nobody argued it wasn't. Are you going to argue that the reason the AI sucks is because console's couldn't handle the data involved? One has nothing to do with the other. In fact, if you want to bring up the development on a console it goes back to my earlier point about money. Bethesda can make more money on the console versions, period. It's a smarter business model. It's economics, like I said before.

 

It takes about 35secs. to set the "Auto Level" option in the NPC Editor (a program created using pre-existing resources and tools, not even a full and complete program such as the CK I remind you) on the NPC called Lydia and save it as an .esp, so please don't try an justify the slack nature of development with things like time management and economics. Bethesda simply went for the quick and easy buck and obviously couldn't care less about proper development.

 

Yeah. You can change auto-level on Lydia in 35 seconds. That's ONE single aspect of follower AI on ONE NPC. And you're ignoring the amount of time spent developing the NPC editor. You can of course believe they could have done the same thing in the CK, but if you think the CK we got was the same CK Bethesda was using, then why did they spent months cleaning it up before releasing it to the public, hmm?

 

You ever notice how Lydia is the only steward not marriable? There's probably a pretty good reason for that. They probably developed Whiterun first as it's one of the first areas of the game and then moved outward from there. So nobody was ever reassigned Whiterun to go back and fix anything unless it was a major issue.

 

You got a lot to learn about "proper development" buddy. You run a company like you're suggesting and you're either going to end up with some pretty short games, or not make a lot of money.

[Stemin]

Stemin, there is big difference between having time to "polish" something and trying to "polish' something that hasn't been improved upon in a decade. You simply can't polish the latter - it is what it is, neglected.

 

You want me to repeat myself? Follower AI is a pretty small portion of what this game offers. Proper AI is time consuming. You don't just write a program that learns for itself. It's like the other guy said earlier in the thread. Programming comes down to whether or not the switch is turned on or off. You have to sit down and go through every possible scenario and then add to the script how that follower is supposed to handle that situation.

 

Spending that much time on it isn't feasable for something that's really an option in this game.

[GrindedStone]

If you have looked at it before. It's not technically AI. You have the stuff they do each day to stay alive. Combat. Flee. Then everything else are really simple packages that it's programed to scan from top to bottom looking for a true =1 Scripting & C+ picks up the rest, though none of it is "intelligence" in any way.

[Stemin]

If you have looked at it before. It's not technically AI. You have the stuff they do each day to stay alive. Combat. Flee. Then everything else are really simple packages that it's programed to scan from top to bottom looking for a true =1 Scripting & C+ picks up the rest, though none of it is "intelligence" in any way.

 

Of course not. You want to get into real development dollars try making a system of alghorithms where you can actually get the computer to think. That's not a video game budget. That's like military stuff. Which brings up an interesting point to mister anti-consoles above. The military actually purchased 1700 PS3's and networked them together to build a super computer because it was cheaper than purchasing "real pc's" The 8 core design that IBM put together for the PS3 was pretty advanced for its time: http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/thinking-tech/what-the-dods-playstation-powered-condor-cluster-means-for-the-future-of-supercomputing/5720

 

If only they had put together a better system memory for it.

[CrazyShadowDami]

totaly aggre, i want bethesda to take more time and concentrate on the damn AI. shure, ppl in medeival were much dumber, but im shure they know the word of suppresion, cover, ambush, flank, etc.

 

 

problem? :P

 

i shortened it....

[Perraine]

@ the Bethesda Fanboy ... What exactly DID Bethesda spend their time on then? IT certainly wasn't anything breathtakingly or fundamentally new and exciting, there is nothing in the game that hasn't/isn't available at better levels in other games. Yes Skyrim is a large 'open' game world, but personally I would be just as happy with a few more load screen if it meant the games AI was actually written properly. It's not even the case that the game engine CAN'T do these things, look at NV with hte simple vast that if you a aiming a weapon and you turn towards one of your followers THEY WILL CROUCH so as not to be n your line of fire, so if the game could do that when NV was released, why exactly can it NOT do the same now?

 

Because It's been DUMBED down to work on Consoles.

 

I do NOT hate Consoles, I own both flavors ($ony and Micro$oft) and think they fantastic, within their limited scope, but that is not my point here, my point is that Bethe$da ignored development of the game for the PC in favor of a quick buck in the Console market! And that is the point of this thread the game AI DOES suck!

 

Yes my example of 35secs for a tweak to Lydia is only 1 aspect of 1 NPC, but let's look at that shall we? 35 secs x lets optimistically say 1200 (for several changes to multiple NPC's) = 42000 secs, that's 700 minutes or (again optimistically) about 2 WORKING DAYS! So again I ask WHAT DID BETHESDA DO for the rest of the time? And Lydia WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MARRIAGEABLE, it was yet another thing they just got to lazy to fix!

 

You claim the CK is a more perfected product created for our benefit alone? You honestly believe that Bethesda would use a LESS powerful and LESS capable tool to create the whole game?

 

Yes, it's a well known fact that the processor's in consoles are very powerful (if you actually study electronic engineering you'd understand why) but in it's simplest terms, the processor's architecture means that it IS more capable of running code within a very limited spectrum, compared to a desktop PC or x86 optimized processor. The key point here though is that Skyrim shouldn't be limited to this basic architecture when being run on a PC.

 

For example: A Eurofighter would get you from the UK to France for instance, much quicker than a Boeing 727, their is no contest if just speed is all that is required, but what if you have 150 passengers to transport? doing 150 trips in the Eurofighter would take considerably longer than 1 (slower) trip in the 727. The same holds true for running scripts and code with a program, you can have a limited number of scripts and a limited amount of data to be processed and run that very smoothly on a Console OR you can have a much wider array of scripts and options and a much larger catalog of resources and run them on a PC ...

[Stemin]

@ the Bethesda Fanboy ... What exactly DID Bethesda spend their time on then? IT certainly wasn't anything breathtakingly or fundamentally new and exciting, there is nothing in the game that hasn't/isn't available at better levels in other games. Yes Skyrim is a large 'open' game world, but personally I would be just as happy with a few more load screen if it meant the games AI was actually written properly. It's not even the case that the game engine CAN'T do these things, look at NV with hte simple vast that if you a aiming a weapon and you turn towards one of your followers THEY WILL CROUCH so as not to be n your line of fire, so if the game could do that when NV was released, why exactly can it NOT do the same now?

 

Because It's been DUMBED down to work on Consoles.

 

I do NOT hate Consoles, I own both flavors ($ony and Micro$oft) and think they fantastic, within their limited scope, but that is not my point here, my point is that Bethe$da ignored development of the game for the PC in favor of a quick buck in the Console market! And that is the point of this thread the game AI DOES suck!

 

Yes my example of 35secs for a tweak to Lydia is only 1 aspect of 1 NPC, but let's look at that shall we? 35 secs x lets optimistically say 1200 (for several changes to multiple NPC's) = 42000 secs, that's 700 minutes or (again optimistically) about 2 WORKING DAYS! So again I ask WHAT DID BETHESDA DO for the rest of the time? And Lydia WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MARRIAGEABLE, it was yet another thing they just got to lazy to fix!

 

You claim the CK is a more perfected product created for our benefit alone? You honestly believe that Bethesda would use a LESS powerful and LESS capable tool to create the whole game?

 

Yes, it's a well known fact that the processor's in consoles are very powerful (if you actually study electronic engineering you'd understand why) but in it's simplest terms, the processor's architecture means that it IS more capable of running code within a very limited spectrum, compared to a desktop PC or x86 optimized processor. The key point here though is that Skyrim shouldn't be limited to this basic architecture when being run on a PC.

 

For example: A Eurofighter would get you from the UK to France for instance, much quicker than a Boeing 727, their is no contest if just speed is all that is required, but what if you have 150 passengers to transport? doing 150 trips in the Eurofighter would take considerably longer than 1 (slower) trip in the 727. The same holds true for running scripts and code with a program, you can have a limited number of scripts and a limited amount of data to be processed and run that very smoothly on a Console OR you can have a much wider array of scripts and options and a much larger catalog of resources and run them on a PC ...

 

I'm not gonna keep arguing back and forth with you. I've explained it to you once. You're not happy with the AI. Good for you. You think Bethesda could have done it better. They could have. It wasn't one of their priorities at the time. It got sacrificed. It's not Skyrim, the story of Lydia the house carl. It's Skyrim the story of the dragonborn. Some of us don't even use followers. Live with it or rant at someone who cares.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Stemin

[GrindedStone]

Well it looks better for sure. What's all that stuff mean anyway?

[kokojie]

is F.E.A.R an open world game? if not, then it's not really a correct/fair comparison.

 

skyrim, made in 2011: they are heavily bloking in thight places, they allways go on traps, they cant find their way around a corridor, somethimes they simply run around like mindless flies, they cant jump, they cant jump, they wont make a 1 inch fall to continue with you, somethimes they dont even follow you through cells....

 

 

F.E.A.R., made in 2005: heavily advanced pathfinding system, they CAN find a way around a corridor, the will jump over stuff, they will use advantage points, like high grounds or defending tight places that are hard to go through, they wont mindlessly charge at you, they will take advantage of cover, they communicate and make plans, THEY FLANK, they make guys with shotguns go close to you, guys with assault rifles at normal distance, guys with snipers at large distance, they split up into one group laying suppresing fire, and the other one going charging at you and flank you, they send "hevies" to charge at you and distract you, they will spot you if you are crouching right next to them, they can recognize from what direction are the gunshots coming from (the human ear can do the same thing, with a mistake of 3 deggres)...

 

so, i guess this is 6 years of AI advancement?

[McclaudEagle]

If I'm honest, Bethesda could have done considerably better in many of Skyrim's technological aspects. I often compare many games to Red Dead Redemption, which in my eyes, has used all the game technology to an amazing level. In this case, I can compare Skyrim against Red Dead Redemption because they are both newish open world games. Let's take a look at some of these comparisons.

 

LOD

 

Skyrim: Very low detailed textures, LOD doesn't switch to the full models smoothly, which often creates lag.

 

Red Dead Redemption: Better detailed textures, LOD switches to the full models smoothly, no lag issues.

 

Cell Loading

 

Skyrim: Only a small amount of cells can be loaded with any form of stability, resulting in close LOD, NPCs and objects rendering close.

 

Red Dead Redemption: A much larger amount of landscape (which is more detailed than Skyrim) is loaded without issue, NPCs and objects render further away.

 

Shadows

 

Skyrim: Shadows can create lots of lag, especially with lots of objects. Shadow movement is also bad, as shadows will only change position every 10-15 seconds.

 

Red Dead Redemption: No lag from lots of shadows. Shadow movement is fluid, with shadows changing position constantly as the sun moves.

 

NPC Rendering

 

Skyrim: Considerably more NPCs can be rendered as opposed to previous games, but more than 20 on screen NPCs will cause problems.

 

Red Dead Redemption: A very large amount of NPCs can be rendered with little problems, although not as much as games like Metro 2033.

 

HDR

 

Skyrim: Vanilla Skyrim features a terrible use of HDR. The landscape is dull and dark, even in full sunlight. However, this can be changed by mods.

 

Red Dead Redemption: Best use of HDR (that I've seen). The landscape is realistically well lit and colored properly, according to what weather is running.

 

FX

 

Skyrim: The game will often suffer from lag when even a small amount of FX (wind/dust).

 

Red Dead Redemption: Can render a lot more FX such as dust before issues arise, but in some places, there can be a bit of lag.

 

There are lots of technical things that go into a game, and I could continue to compare them all I want. Unfortunately, a lot of the issues relate mostly to what the actual game engine can handle, not what the developers can work on.