Quakecon and the future of Fallout 4 etc

[zanity]

Today, Quakecon is the major outlet for all things Bethesda. Rage 2 (in reality a reworked version of Mad Max 2- the game WB cancelled, which is why Beth launched that pre-emptive strike against WB over the 'Westworld' title- cos Rage 2 contains a metric ton of code from WB's Mad Max) got a massive gameplay promotion. And THAT game is way further out than the GAMEPLAY FREE coverage of Fallout:76.

 

Indeed one could see at this year's Quakecon what really matters for Beth- where their dev time is working out well for them. And where they have ZERO issue allowing outside devs work on existing Beth IPs.

 

But what was missing? Any mention of OUR genre of gameplay. The harmless mega-successful form of game Skyrim and Fallout 3/NV/4 represents. The one gaming genre the mainstream press actually approves of.

 

Let's face it, guys, Bethesda is now out of OUR genre for good. Beth has moved on, and Zenimax is obviously happy so far.

 

But there's a factor most here do not understand, but one Todd Howard has repeated in interviews many times. Todd has stated he is OVER Skyrim style gaming that looks and feels like Skyrim and Fallout 4. His 'vision' is some amazing pie-in-the-sky 'futuristic' "can't believe what I am seeing" advancement of the genre that he wants to be the basis of any new entry into these IPs.

 

The problem is TWOFOLD.

1) Bethesda is the last major studio in the world capable of advancing open world gaming tech in such a way.

 

2) This form of producer driven 'design' allows the producer to BLAME the hardware- in other words to say (as Todd has said) "I cannot even begin work on such a game until the hardware has advanced enough to meet my vision").

 

But another way of looking at this is that Todd was ASHAMED of Fallout 4 in a way that those of us on the outside who played the finished release mostly can't comprehend.

 

But the tech in Fallout 4 is a joke compared to the tech in other Beth games, and Todd feels this. Yet while clueless people say "fix the engine", the problem with cutting edge OPEN-WORLD engines is that they are the HARDEST to build by a massive factor over other gaming engines (semi-open world engines as seen in Doom, Wolfenstein and Dishonored are trivial by comparison).

 

So Todd feels ashamed of the tech limitations of Fallout 4 that he is very personally aquainted with. But WE as the people who played Fallout 4 enjoyed the game greatly DESPITE the tech flaws cos it was a pretty good entry in the open world genre we love.

 

OUR perspective, the people who made Skyrim and Fallout 3/nv/4 such successes, is while that we would love big engine improvements, we will happily take MORE adventures on the current engine while the wheels of tech advancement slowly grind away.

 

Seen from our POV, Beth would relax, engage in INCREMENTAL engine improvements, and set up teams who accept the tech limitations and bang out YEARLY releases in the key RPG(ish) franchises.

 

But Quakecon shows the exact opposite of this philosophy. If it ain't exciting, bleeding edge, and EDGY, it ain't worth doing. And that, girls and boys, is US. WE- or the game type we love- just ain't worth doing.

 

But Beth turns this into a self fullfilling prophecy. We- the old Beth audience- learn the downside of the word 'OLD'. Beth convinces itself we are the "sad oldies"- the "luddites" who are trying to hold back the exciting future, and by doing so betray "the kids" of that future.

 

This is a delusional self-serving LIE. I, for instance, loved Dishonored, the new Doom, and the new Wolf (tho I HATED the mediocre sequels to Dishonored and Wolf- both of which sold out the gameplay in favour of cut-scenes and gimmicks- and the sequel to Doom looks just as poor).

 

It is true that REAL new entries in the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises (if they existed) would not be best served by promotion at Quakecon, but then a media giant like Disney does NOT insist on promoting its very different forms of product via a single media event.

 

Quakecon shows why OUR Beth games can only continue if the monolithic nature of BGS ends, and Zenimax forces divisions on Beth that each focus on specific genres of games. An old school (and techwise somewhat primitive) rapid sequel to Skyrim etc should not have to compete with flashy titles made "for the kids".

 

PS it is pure irony that the standout at this year's Quakecon was the gameplay promotion of Mad Max 2 (er, I mean Rage 2). Avalanche, with WB money, worked on Mad Max 2. However the Mad Max IP managers at WB, when they concluded that a follow up to the MOVIE Mad Max was far from defined, chose to NOT allow a computer game to confuse the punters over the nature of the FAR more important Mad Max 2 movie. So WB dropped the game, and Bethesda picked it up.

 

That isn't the irony. The irony is that Beth was once working on a GOT game (yes Game of Thrones) for HBO- a wholly owned division of WB. The bad blood between Beth and WB proves (to me) that project long since crashed. Now we have legal nonsense between Beth and WB over f2p 'westworld' pre-empting the fact that Avalanche's Rage 2 contains a lod of code WB paid for with the Mad Max and (canceled) Mad Max 2 projects.

 

But the irony I really mean is this. Avalanche made the insanely good Just Cause 2 and the studio was on the verge of becoming the next ROCKSTAR (GTA/Red Dead). But the owner of Avalanche was as foolish as you get, and set his people working on Just Cause:76 (f2p, microtransaction riddled POS). Just Cause:76 RUINED Avalanche for years (and the game was eventually cancelled before release). Avalanche only survived cos it was a small company in a cheap country- and eventually made a still running f2p hunting game into a continuous source of income.

 

It took Avalanche from Just Cause 2 til now to mostly recover from the Just Cause:76 fiasco. Today Avalanche is back making EXACTLY the same form of games that Just Cause 2 was in the first place, - namely Rage 2, Just Cause 4 and that 1970's based young people vs robots in Sweden.

 

Todd COULD ask the owner of Avalanche how choosing to betray his core audience, and making a play for the addiction gaming crowd with Just Cause:76 (obviously not its real name) worked out for him.

 

The talent at Avalanche are just the best. The games we lost thanks to their terrible boss could have changing the gaming world. And it is the great games we lose for no good reason that we should really think about.

 

No-one here cares about addiction gaming- that nonsense that blew up with the rise of Apple's powerful iPhone tech. And it is NOT an either or situation. We could have our traditional rapid yearly follow-ups to our genre games, and the addiction gaming kiddies could have their micro-transaction riddled pseudo games as well.

 

But Quakecon makes it clear that with Beth it is an either or. Beth wants to be cool, and doable versions of our games (on less than perfect, less than cutting edge engines) just ain't "cool".

 

Sure other publishers sometimes make open-world games. Final Fantasy XV has a fantastic open world section in a VERY unfinished game - but this game took ten years, and what was released was a Frankenstein mess of fragments taken from a much larger ambition, with a ton of story missing.

 

The jaw dropping Red Dead 2 is almost here, but the gap between Rockstar releases seems like an eternity.

 

CDPR struggles with Cyberpunk as Beth struggled with Fallout 4- but CDPR will eventually deliver something far superior. However again CDPR takes a long time between releases- and for them each period may prove too much and finish the company for good.

 

Only ONE current publisher has open world IP where the stories outweigh the game tech and can be indefinitely extended. Bethesda's open-world IP advantage is INSANE. In theory. If Beth had management smart enough to exploit it.

 

If I ran Zenimax, I'd force Bethesda to create an over-arching franchise name for Elder Scrolls/Fallout/Starfield, and use it for multi-media publishing (books, games, comics, films and TV). Have a yearly convention for this media concept, with prize money for the best FREE MODS, and promotion of YEARLY entries in the branches of the IP. SF/fantasy genre fans are a money tree that never stops producing fruit- IF they are given what they want (see Marvel today vs Marvel in the 1990s- and how many Marvel movies do you now get a year?- and that Marvel Avengers movie that made all the money in the world has no best-of-class CGI, and many CGI shots that are some of the worst I've ever seen in a big budget film- fan love of story/characters is MORE important than tech).

 

A pipe dream. As the Fallout:76 segment at Quakecon and the aftermath proves, Zenimax money is spent on Todd's Toxic Army online screaming down sound advice. Think about that. A company paying to supress voices that argue for business strategies that guarantee massive profits.

[Dukoth]

"(in reality a reworked version of Mad Max 2- the game WB cancelled, which is why Beth launched that pre-emptive strike against WB over the 'Westworld' title- cos Rage 2 contains a metric ton of code from WB's Mad Max)"

 

proof, or you're LYING

 

just because they're both in desert environments and have cars doesn't mean their code is anything alike

[blitzen]

"(in reality a reworked version of Mad Max 2- the game WB cancelled, which is why Beth launched that pre-emptive strike against WB over the 'Westworld' title- cos Rage 2 contains a metric ton of code from WB's Mad Max)"

 

proof, or you're LYING

 

just because they're both in desert environments and have cars doesn't mean their code is anything alike

This is false. If someone makes a declaration that is eventually determined to be incorrect, "LYING" isn't the only possible explanation.

[Dukoth]

I don't believe he is mistaken, I believe he is making it up, with intent of slandering Bethesda, I am sick and tired of this guys rants filled with baseless accusations

 

hence: proof or he's LYING

[blitzen]

30 years from now nobody will remember my comments or your comments. What will they remember? The zanity rants. Why would you conspire to deprive us of such epic rantage? This is an historic occasion.

[dikr]

To me it looks like some people are looking to much in the 'now' and paint out doom scenario's for the entire single player RPG genre based on current affairs: Bethesda working up towards the FO76 release and perhaps even more important: Starfield. It's only natural that most quotes we hear now are in line with that.

 

Yup, we're not playing the first violin at the moment as one or both of those games might turn out not being our cup of tea. Like before, (the great draughts between previous FO & TES games), we need to suck it up and be patient for FOV and TESVI. These IP's and the formula have been a major pillar of their foundation for a long time and that isn't going to change. It might evolve and they might make sidesteps with other titles, but it likely won't change profoundly. I understand that some of us aren't getting younger and we'd rather have them now than in 3 years or so but so far I'm still enjoying this game, (thanks to the open modding platform it still is and the Nexus). Just don't let the passion you have for these games turn into entitlement and obsession. It's best to sit back for a while. (I already ordered a metric ton of popcorn for the FO76 reception).

 

And if Bethesda does drop us and all your doom scenario's turn out true, you can bet your behind on another developer picking it up where they left of and that might not even be a bad thing. I would love to see some more competition in the open world / open modding / single player rpg genre and developers and marketeers finally realizing that there's a rich, older audience demanding better writing, mature stories & true roleplaying.

Edited August 13, 2018 by dikr

[blitzen]

To me it looks like some people are looking to much in the 'now' and paint out doom scenario's for the entire single player RPG genre based on current affairs: Bethesda working up towards the FO76 release and perhaps even more important: Starfield. It's only natural that most quotes we hear now are in line with that.

 

Yup, we're not playing the first violin at the moment as one or both of those games might turn out not being our cup of tea. Like before, (the great draughts between previous TES games), we need to suck it up and be patient for FOV and TESVI. These IP's and the formula have been a major pillar of their foundation for a long time and that isn't going to change. It might evolve and they might make sidesteps with other titles, but it likely won't change profoundly. I understand that some of us aren't getting younger and we'd rather have them now than in 3 years or so but so far I'm still enjoying this game, (thanks to the open modding platform it still is and the Nexus). Just don't let the passion you have for these games turn into entitlement and obsession. It's best to sit back for a while. (I already ordered a metric ton of popcorn for the FO76 reception).

 

And if Bethesda does drop us and all your doom scenario's turn out true, you can bet your behind on another developer picking it up where they left of and that might not even be a bad thing. I would love to see some more competition in the open world / open modding / single player rpg genre and developers and marketeers finally realizing that there's a rich, older audience demanding better writing, mature stories & true roleplaying.

Great comment. The TES/FO titles aren't what I would call great games, but they are superb modding platforms. It would be great if other developers followed this model. An open-world single-player action/adventure/RPG that can be modded extensively is a winner. The online mulliplayer genre is going to be crowded and highly competitive. BGS has no competition for their standard RPGs. It's almost a guaranteed win for them. The mods being built for these games are going to dwarf the original game. You can't ask for better customer engagement than that. People are willing to spend hundreds of hours working on mods. There are teams creating new provinces on the Skyrim engine. How are they not capitalizing on this?

Edited August 13, 2018 by blitzen

[dikr]

 

How are they not capitalizing on this?

Well, to me it seems they are trying to capitalize on it, (Creation Club, mods for consolians). Sadly in an effort to have control over mods and that's my personal, biggest fear; Future releases with mods restricted to their platform only and their "safe for all ages" morals and standards. i.e. exit Nexus and other platforms. The problem is that Zenimax and Beth as well, are traditional companies with stakeholders demanding profitsss yet they are doing something extraordinary: creating 'open source' games. There's a whole lot of tension between commercial interest and putting in effort to make your game's assets available for everyone to f*ck around with. Yet I'm convinced that's one of the biggest strengths and a unique selling point of the franchise, assuring their games' long term value. Problem is ... it's mainly a strength to us; the older-people-playing-rpg's-on-PC and we have become kind of a niche. I just hope that the core of folks at Bethesda is in our camp and want what we want: total gaming and modding freedom.

[blitzen]

Creation Club. I've never looked at it. How well is it doing? I've read that the modders only get a one-time fee for the mods, regardless of how many people purchase them. Is Bethesda making much money from this?

[dikr]

No idea :(

 

I do hope that modders like Eli earn a good living out of it but otherwise I never liked the idea of Bethesda having their own platform where mods are bound to conform to the age rating of the games themselves and cost money too. Been avoiding it like the plague. Also in support of the Nexus and the concept of open & free modding.