Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[kaindjinn]

As far as I can tell, the Skyrim civil war is about two things: Talos worship and secession from the empire. According to my brother, if you're anything besides a Nord, joining the Empire is the most logical choice (since he says the Nords want Skyrim to be only Nords). Since I play a Wood Elf, I'd clearly want to side with the empire on that fact alone.

 

But there seems to be a lot more to it than racial discrimination. At least as far as the leaders are concerned, what I heard from and about Tulius (probably misspelled that) and Ulfric make both men seem like saber-rattlers. Tulius clearly looks down upon Nords, since he complained about their "damn honor," and Ulfric has no love of the empire. Plus there's the whole king murder...

 

What I'd really like to know before I make this decision is the political systems of these two factions. The empire didn't seem all that bad in Oblivion, but since New Vegas I've noticed Bethesda seems to have a more vicious vision of Romans. While Tamriel's Empire clearly isn't the Roman one, it's a hard taste to get out of my mouth. I know very little about the Stormcloaks, besides wanting a free Skyim. Then there's Talos worship... I don't have a major opinion, but I do wear an Amulet of Talos for faster shouting (which made turning in Talos worship evidence to that High Elf seem really hypocritical).

 

Can anyone help me make a decision? I'm squarely on the fence with this. If it makes a decision, I went with the NCR in New Vegas because it was the most economically sound (one nation = fewer trade barriers = more power for a recovering America).

[Tair]

I'm not much of a lore guy, but here's my personal opinion:

 

I think the Stormcloaks are the good guys here. The main issue, to me, is the Thalmor. The peace treaty that the Empire signed in order to the end war gave the Thalmor permission to not only skulk freely around Skyrim, but to literally capture and execute Nords simply for practicing their traditional religion.

 

This should sound very, very familiar to real life events (you know, WW II).

 

It's not that the Empire is bad overall--it's that they made a bad choice. Most of the justification for what the Empire did comes in the form of "well, the Empire was between a rock and a hard place, so they signed the peace treaty." In other words, they backed down in my opinion.

 

When it comes to scenarios like this, I'm more of a "win or die trying" type of guy, so I support the Stormcloaks.

 

Also, I've played through both stories and have found Tulius to be a fairly weak, uninspiring man who is just going through the motions. Compared to Ulfric, who is a strong, determined leader driven by passion and a legitimate oath to his people.

 

That's my take. One of my favorite things about Skyrim is that you can really make it your own.

[kevkiev]

I'm not much of a lore guy

same here.

 

The main issue, to me, is the Thalmor...

agreed.

 

... have found Tulius to be a fairly weak, uninspiring man. Compared to Ulfric, who is a strong, determined leader driven by passion and a legitimate oath to his people.

I can't really argue with that. Something about Tulius really bothers me. (Maybe it's cuz he was responsible for my char almost getting her head cut off!)

 

 

I'm still not sure who to side with in my 2nd playthrough (might go stormcloak only b/c I did Imperial first time), but I guess what tends me towards the Imperials is that, in the long run, I think they're the best hope against the Thalmor. I get the feeling that the current peace with the Thalmor isn't going to last forever, and that the Imperials have the best chance of defeating them. At least moreso than an independent Skyrim. Seems that the Imperials just pay lip service to the "no Talos" thing - the loudmouth ranting guy in Whiterun is a good example since nobody takes any steps to shut him up. (Though I'm REALLY tempted :devil:) And Tulius's underling (can't remember her name) seems like a Thalmor-hater to me. To sum up, I think (hope) the Imperial's signed the treaty because they realized they had to in order to survive, and are just waiting for round 2.

[trukittn]

The Empire is taking Talos worshippers out of their home and delivering them to Thalmor torturers for 'interrogation' right alongside their justicars. Not exactly what I'd call the good guys. While the Stormcloaks are not without their faults, they aren't wrong in trying to defend their home and restore their traditions - traditions that the Empire once shared when it came to Talos.

 

So while I don't think the Empire are the "Bad Guys", I do think that they are working with them. Whatever their reasons for this may be, it is unacceptable to me. So, you won't find any of my characters joining the legion even though none of them are Nords. In fact my newest one is an Altmer. I think that once you dig a little deeper into what's going on, you'll realize it's less about "Skyrim is for the Nords" and more about "Skyrim is -not- for the Thalmor."

[mojodajojo]

Bethesda did a good job making both sides totally unappealing, but I usually go with the stormcloaks since they didn't try to whack my head off 5 minutes into the game. As for good guys versus bad guys, I think they purposefully made sure you couldn't point to either side and say "oh" those are the bad guys or "oh" those are the good guys.

 

You can either repress a religion/culture and occupy a foreign land as an imperial ... Or you can join a power-hungry racist who kills boy-kings for glory...

Personally I would have been ok with some good ole fashioned black and white good and evil. But that's just me. If you added a "They're both bad guys." option to your poll that would get my vote.

[kaindjinn]

If you added a "They're both bad guys." option to your poll that would get my vote.

I would if Bethesda had a more clearly "white" option. :laugh: I like playing as the good guys, but I'll take what I can get.

[Perraine]

Or if their was a "Butcher all the stinkin' Thalmor and make ME, The Dovahkiin, HIGH KING BADA$$ of Skyrim, that would get my vote ...

 

But I digress, I'm of the same opinion though really, most Imperials seem pretty decent and the Empire as a whole isn't really the bad guy, The Problem is the high muckety-muck attitude of the Thalmor, even their dialogue in Skyrim is obnoxious and offensive, and every time one of them tells me that the Thalmor a better than Nords, I answer with 6 inches of steel through his/her guts ...

[Tair]

The Problem is the high muckety-muck attitude of the Thalmor, even their dialogue in Skyrim is obnoxious and offensive, and every time one of them tells me that the Thalmor a better than Nords, I answer with 6 inches of steel through his/her guts ...

ROFL. Made my night. Thank you so much for that quote. Muckety-muck.

[penguinchao]

From what I know about the lore, here's my take:

 

Both sides have noble goals, both sides are fighting for what's right, but when you really examine the sides, the Stormcloaks are the "bad guys" if you have to choose one. The history behind the conflict is that the Thalmor and the Empire were at war, so to avoid destroying the empire entirely, the Imperials decided to make a truce with the Thalmor, which was agreed upon on the condition that Talos worship ceased. The Empire had no intention of ever keeping the peace or permanently banning Talos worship; this was merely a period of time to allow the empire and its citizens to recover. The Stormcloak soldiers are fighting to restore the Talos worship that was banned in the treaty with the Thalmor. However, when thoroughly examined, you can see that Ulfric is mainly out for power and himself and he did not follow the tradition of the Nords of fighting the High King for power, but instead took a cheap shot at the king to kill him. So in a nutshell: the Stormcloaks want a noble goal, but are short-sighted and follow a corrupt leader, Ulfric.

[imperistan]

From what I know about the lore, here's my take:

 

Both sides have noble goals, both sides are fighting for what's right, but when you really examine the sides, the Stormcloaks are the "bad guys" if you have to choose one. The history behind the conflict is that the Thalmor and the Empire were at war, so to avoid destroying the empire entirely, the Imperials decided to make a truce with the Thalmor, which was agreed upon on the condition that Talos worship ceased. The Empire had no intention of ever keeping the peace or permanently banning Talos worship; this was merely a period of time to allow the empire and its citizens to recover. The Stormcloak soldiers are fighting to restore the Talos worship that was banned in the treaty with the Thalmor. However, when thoroughly examined, you can see that Ulfric is mainly out for power and himself and he did not follow the tradition of the Nords of fighting the High King for power, but instead took a cheap shot at the king to kill him. So in a nutshell: the Stormcloaks want a noble goal, but are short-sighted and follow a corrupt leader, Ulfric.

 

Nope. The Dominion couldn't have destroyed the Empire after the War of the Red Ring. If they couldn't waltz over Hammerfel, one province, in the 5 years they spent fighting them, they weren't going to waltz over the rest of the Empire. There might not have been the ability to invade the Dominion at the time, but there was no way the Empire was going to lose against the Dominion. Hell, after the War of the Red Ring, the Empire could have easily demanded the surrender of the Dominion, or at the least a non-negotiable, non-conditioned truce. The Empire had more than enough resources to draw on to both support Hammerfel and defend other borders. (without committing exhausted troops mind you)

 

And no, you can't just take the time (or rather, this much time) to recover with the Dominion, and certainly not in the way that they did. You're giving the Dominion back their advantage by waiting things out with them and giving them free reign to undermine your entire Empire. Indecisiveness hesitation, and appeasement will not win you the war against the Dominion.

 

No, the Empire gave up because the Empire only cares about Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was the ONLY province during that war that was suffering heavily that the Empire actually cared about. Hammerfel was suffering just as bad as Cyrodiil was, but the Emperor ordered it abandoned in an attempt to take back the Imperial City. Did you catch that? The Emperor, ordered Hammerfel abandoned, to save Cyrodiil. And then he decides to give the Dominion what it wanted, purely because Cyrodiil was in bad shape, but according to the Empire's leadership, they were "sparing" the rest of the Empire.

 

But lets look at the facts here. Cyrodiil was in bad shape. So was Hammerfel. At the wars conclusion, Cyrodiil was completely empty of Dominion forces and had enough troops to at least defend borders. Hammerfel was still fighting the Dominion. Skyrim and High Rock were comfortable up in the North, never seeing the war in any shape or form. Morrowind was already more or less ravaged and destroyed even before the war, and it wouldn't have been important to base any decision on sparing it from a fight. (as there's nothing there to defend really)

 

So, that's one province that's actually seeing the war, and is going to see it regardless of whether or not the war ends. Two provinces wrecked (one destroyed before the war, one destroyed during), with one completely void of the force that wrecked it but still with the capacity to defend its own borders, the other totally unimportant to anything. And two provinces that haven't seen any damage and can totally support everyone else if managed correctly.

 

So what was the Emperor sparing exactly? Only Cyrodiil from the utter "horror" of having another enemy soldier step foot in it, even though the Dominion would have been stupid to even order of their own to do so at that point. Any man with the knowledge of what was going on in Tamriel at the time and a fairly decent intelligence would have been able to see that. And its not like you could say it was out of fear of some magical Deus X Machina that the Dominion was holding back, because if the Dominion had that why would they have stopped fighting? If they could take the Empire down after the War of the Red Ring, they would have. They had zero reason not to if they had such an ability. But they didn't have such an ability, which is the only reason the Dominion even gave the Empire's truce a bother. (also didn't help that the Empire was offering everything they demanded of the Empire in the first place). The fact that they couldn't take Hammerfel after 5 years proves that even further, as well as the fact that they couldn't have taken on the rest of the Empire in that time either.

 

Long story short, you're buying into total political BS made up to cover the Emperor's selfish desire to spare Cyrodiil (which didn't have to and wouldn't have seen another minute of the war anyway) at the expense of everyone else in the Empire, and only making things worse by supporting their continued "peace" with the Dominion.

 

 

And no, Ulfric is not a power-hungry racist. This has been disproven so many times over by now that I'm simply not going to bother going into it again. And getting caught up on tradition, as if he's obligated (is he obligated to you? Did he promise you he'd follow Nordic tradition to the letter and not stray from it an inch?) to be following it to the letter, is dumb, to put it plainly. Fact of the matter is, he was making a statement by invoking tradition in his duel with Torygg, just as he was making a statement with everything he did the day Torygg died.

 

He invokes tradition, he shows that he remembers what Skyrim was and what it by all means still should be. He also disproves the king as being wise (one of the two greatest traits of the greatest Kings). A king so unwise as to require himself to wait on the word of some insignificant Jarl's son (and to accept his challenge to his rule no less, given his weak physical fortitude) does not deserve to be a king.

 

He challegnes the High King. He shows he won't bow to a leader that couldn't act in Skyrim's best interests.

 

He disarms the High King with the power of the Thu'um, showing his closeness to the Nordic past and the time when Skyrim was not a country of weak men and women. A time when an army of Skyrim was feared, not folded and forgotten into a faceless cabal of a failing power.

 

He slays him, showing that the High King did not deserve his title. A High King cannot defend his country if he cannot defend himself, especially against some insignificant Jarl's son.