MacSuibhne Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Couldn't the dunmer establish their own city somewhere distant and isolated? They are alreayd used to harsh conditions, they won't have to deal with the locals and they would retain their culture. All those haughty dunmer could move to the city and guard it with their ancestors' spirits. They won't meddle in political affairs and keep to themselves. I see nothing wrong with this solution. Out of the question--who would they blame if they did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) @abc222 Actually, I think the Dunmer establishing their own city is an *Excellent* idea. That would pretty much solve the problem in itself. That puts their fate in their hands and keeps them out of the sh*t. Good Call abc222! But... but... Skyrim Belongs to the Nords, remember? Yeah I know. we have Orc cities already, which the Empire settled them in, not the Nords and even they have contributed much to Skyrim. Well... at least as long as Ulfric doesn't get his way that is. @Brett Well you're missing the point of what I'm saying and that point is Ulfric CAN get the Blacksmith(s) to work on Contract for the Stormcloaks and he CAN also refuse to send out the Guard when a Non-Nord party is under attack and he CAN influence the other allied holds do provide service for the war effort, but apparently, he can't help a group of refugees who've lost their homeland? BS. Ulfric CAN do anything except for what he's supposed to do as Jarl and that's doing his job. Seriously, this guy can't even get Jarl right but he wants to be High King of Skyrim. You know why he had to kill Torygg and start this war? It's because he's incompetent. Yep. He's a loser Jarl who can't get his priorities together. The people look up to the Jarl he's he's... the one who sets the tone for the city. Now, I have no clue where you're coming from. I just, see the ways you're bending and twisting my argument... I have no clue how any of that pertains to the discussion on the Dark Elves. I... I just don't. I have never advocated a welfare state. I don't. There's nothing I hate more than people who won't contribute. I mean??? According to your argument then, by Ulfric putting the Blacksmiths and Guards and Bandits and everyone else behind the SC War effort, intentionally creating jobs, then by your definition Ulfric is running a welfare state. Ulfric is creating jobs for the war, he's paying and contracting bandits and blachsmiths for the war where they usually wouldn't get paid or have a job, then that's a welfare state. By your own admission, you're trying to reinforce your point with Sarcasm, DENYING the Truth thereof. I am just stating the facts, with arguably some realistic conjecture but it's all founded on what is and if anyone else has noticed, I also took Ulfric's side on some things in the beginning. And lastly, if Ulfric can create jobs for the war... then he CAN also create some way to help the Dunmer, even if it's resettling them to a proper location. According to him the Nords are ENTITLED to Skyrim and everything there in. Perhaps another reason for the war... Edited July 2, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Dunmer can only establish their own hamlet if they choose to be productive members of Skyrim society, because no matter where they go they are in some Jarl's hold and some Jarl WILL be expected to be responsible for them. Think Riverwood when you give the message to the Jarl in Whiterun, those people are expecting troop support - and because they are productive citizens of Whiterun Hold that support is on it's way. They are an asset to the Jarl he cannot ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 @fraquar Agreed and Skyrim can collect taxes off them too, it's a win-win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 They have to take the first step though, and sitting in Windhelm whining for 200 years isn't gonna get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Or someone give them a little nudge out of the nest. Makes sense. Again, Leadership and Accountability. Two words which forms a magical talisman from which obstacles vanish and solutions are born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 200 years isn't enough of a nudge? Why does everybody have to do something for them? Why can't they simply take the initiative to do something about their own situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Who says they've always been in that position... Besides it appears that many of the Dark Elves have settled in, again, because of the Empire taking them in. Only problem is Windhelm. My point pertains specifically to that. Again I respect history, but I'm in the here and now, 200 yrs, 150 yrs is over and done. Also, we have to go from the time the Argonians invaded not when Red Mtn blew up. Still Ulfric's problem unfortunately and it still doesn't mean there's nothing he can do. Why hasn't this been done already? Excellent question. Edited July 3, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Well you're missing the point of what I'm saying and that point is Ulfric CAN get the Blacksmith(s) to work on Contract for the Stormcloaks and he CAN also refuse to send out the Guard when a Non-Nord party is under attack and he CAN influence the other allied holds do provide service for the war effort, but apparently, he can't help a group of refugees who've lost their homeland? BS. Ulfric CAN do anything except for what he's supposed to do as Jarl and that's doing his job. Seriously, this guy can't even get Jarl right but he wants to be High King of Skyrim. You know why he had to kill Torygg and start this war? It's because he's incompetent. Yep. He's a loser Jarl who can't get his priorities together. The people look up to the Jarl he's he's... the one who sets the tone for the city. Now, I have no clue where you're coming from. I just, see the ways you're bending and twisting my argument... I have no clue how any of that pertains to the discussion on the Dark Elves. I... I just don't. I have never advocated a welfare state. I don't. There's nothing I hate more than people who won't contribute. I mean??? According to your argument then, by Ulfric putting the Blacksmiths and Guards and Bandits and everyone else behind the SC War effort, intentionally creating jobs, then by your definition Ulfric is running a welfare state. Ulfric is creating jobs for the war, he's paying and contracting bandits and blachsmiths for the war where they usually wouldn't get paid or have a job, then that's a welfare state. By your own admission, you're trying to reinforce your point with Sarcasm, DENYING the Truth thereof. I am just stating the facts, with arguably some realistic conjecture but it's all founded on what is and if anyone else has noticed, I also took Ulfric's side on some things in the beginning. And lastly, if Ulfric can create jobs for the war... then he CAN also create some way to help the Dunmer, even if it's resettling them to a proper location. According to him the Nords are ENTITLED to Skyrim and everything there in. Perhaps another reason for the war...Sarcasm doesn't deny the truth of anything. If you think it does, then you do not understand what sarcasm is. Yes, I did use sarcasm to make the point that Torygg had nothing to do with inviting the Dunmer to Skyrim, and I pointed it out myself. How did that deny any truth? I also used a little reductio ad absurdum to point out that you were suggesting that Ulfric start to implement a welfare state. Again, that does not deny any truth or twist any arguments. You ARE advocating steps that are part of a welfare nanny state, though not to the extent that many countries in our world are currently suffering under, whether you're willing to admit it or not. This is something that is simply unreasonable to expect in a feudal society. If you really believe that what Ulfric is doing is "creating jobs", then you really, really need to learn some economics. Really. No sarcasm. And if you really believe that it is Ulfric's "job" to help people be successful, then you really, really need to learn something about how feudal societies work. Holding the government responsible for such things is exactly what leads to a welfare state. Where in the world did you get the idea that Ulfric is paying and contracting with bandits? That is a truly bizarre contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) @Brett No it's not. "Freedom or Sovngarde" "Your kind has no place here" and Bandits who go after everyone except Nords and Ulfric won't do anything about them, Stormcloaks attack me for standing too close to them... That's not Bizarre at all. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between the two. Now, you're jumping to many different conclusions about me. That's the problem here. You're not focusing on the point, you're coming after me on this stuff and assuming that I don't understand whatever, which the truth is I do understand more than you realize. I don't have to explain every little detail and neither do you. You're also ignoring most of what I've been saying, which pretty much counters your thoughts. Again, never did I EVER suggest Ulfric go welfare-state. You brought that into this not me. My point was, Ulfric can do anything he wants but he doesn't care about helping the Dark Elves. And I personally doubt that you understand economics either, because I'm suggesting job-creation and that more than anything else, is what makes an economy grow, JOBS! The more people working, the more paying taxes, the more people can spend into the economy = the more jobs created = more opportunity for everyone else! I am NOT advocating a welfare nanny state you leftist @#&*. If Ulfric can find jobs for the WAR then he can find jobs or do SOMETHING with/for the Dark Elves. The Romans were very good at creating jobs and expanding infrastructure. Also back in the ROMAN days there were many, many great leaders and philosophers where all they did was talk economics. For someone so smart, you seem to think that everyone back then was ignorant. Quite the opposite actually, the ancients in many ways excelled and out-thunk us. Well... at least they did until the Roman Church (Not a ref to all churches) came around and Rome fell. I don't think you understand that... See you're dealing with someone here who knows a great deal about history so you can't deceive me I'm afraid. See how easy that was and I didn't even have to use no fancy words, which some people use to try and talk over other people, making themselves look smarter but no one knows what in the hell they're talking about, without either sporting a dictionary or going to Google to translate. Sarcasm does DENY lots of things. I worked at this place for 5.5 yrs and no one would work together because of the sarcasm and malicious spite being thrown around like acid. While I finally got out of that hell-hole, I pretty much refuse to deal with childish, spiteful people. It's made me several enemies, but hey that's their problem not mine. If you used a little sarcasm, that's one thing. But there's a difference between disagreeing with someone and ripping their post. For this, let's just agree to disagree and leave it alone. Besides, the 4th is coming up and I'm getting ready to go on vacation for a couple days. Going to break out the George foreman and start cookin' :D I'm kind of pissed because they canceled the Fireworks show, however, considering the fact that several states are on fire at the moment, I won't complain. Edited July 3, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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