Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[kibblesticks]

Ulfric was "assigned" to a "handler" as an "asset". But just because the Thalmor think it is true doesn't make it so. The Germans thought Arthur Owens was their man too. Or Juan Pujol Garcia...who received medals from the Geermans but was a dedicated double agent for the British and Americans. I'm not suggesting or making a comparison...just pointing out that in all likelihood the Germans were very sure of "their" men as well.

 

Ah I see, so with absoloutely no evidence, you just trust Ulfric is a double agent despite solid Thalmor belief that he is on their side.. brilliant reasoning.

 

For that reason alone, the issue is a dead letter. I see nothing particularly damning, esp. considering the source.

 

Seems to me It's only a dead letter because it doesn't support your view. The source has no reason to be false.

 

just deal with the issues raised by Imperial appeasement and acquiescence to Thalmor demands and incursions.

If you're gonna condemn a man with no more proof than the dossier but let the Empire off the hook, something is very "rotten in Denmark.'

I'm condemming all the Stormcloaks because they're weakening men's ability to fight against the mer-purists by spilling their own blood and refusing to see the bigger picture.

 

Let Ulfric's action speak for themselves. Stop taking the word of Machiavellian manipulators, malcontents and people whose jobs, sinecures and security rests with being faithful to the status quo--an entrenched and corrupt bureaucracy so inextricably entangled with the Thalmor that they have no incentive to change.

Like I said, possibly there are alterior motives at work in the Empire's upper echilons, but they're undoubtebly not all traitors and most should be able to see that a Thalmor victory means death for men's freedoms and lives. Also, I doubt that after Titus Mede I took back the Imperial city he would have allowed suspected traitors to remain in office. I assume that the Imperials would have been alert to traitors after that. But I agree that it's likely a few Empire officals work for the Thalmor. Despite this, the Empire is still the one with the power to beat the Thalmor, not the Stormcloaks.

 

 

30 years worth...

30 years is nothing. A speck on the timeline of Tamriel. And if thirty years is what it takes for the Empire to get its act together then so be it. Again, whilst apathy is certainly a bad stance, I do believe that the Stormcloak rebellion can only mean a weakened front against the real threat.

[kibblesticks]

You miss the whole point...and an obvious one it is, too...of the dossier. The Thalmor are, without question, playing a very dangerous game here. But that kind of Machiavellian treachery is part of their racial make up. The dossier makes it clear that it is not in their interests to have either side in the ascendant. Not because the Empire has a better chance to defeat them...or the Stormcloaks either...but simply because turmoil uses up resources...men, supplies and morale.

Right... so a divise rebellion is what they wanted. And Ulfric gave them that..? So that either makes Ulfric very rash (some would say stupid) or suggests he is under the thumb of the Thalmor.

 

There is no disputing that the Stormcloak Rebellion is divisive but so is thirty years of waiting for a government you support (with taxes and so forth) and place your hope in, to do something (even if it's wrong) so that you can stop crawling on your belly.

I see no-one crawling on their belly.. that's just hyperbole. Yes there are tortures and arrests, and these are wrong, but it's a matter of compromise. It really comes down to what the best course of action to take is, and if the Empire's top dogs believe these small injustices are better than the alternative, then I'm inclined to believe them until they are proven to be truly traitorous, or apathetic to the Thalmor's actions (which are fairly limited right now).

 

If it weren't, Ulfric wouldn't have any followers, at all.

Yup, nationalists, patriotists and reactionists always manage to get some people on their side; as evidenced by the Thalmor.

 

I suspect either side could, if the distractions were removed, muster sufficient force to confront and maybe even defeat the Thalmor.

Maybe, but are you willing to bet the life of every non-mer citizen of Tamriel on that suspicion?

 

 

I have to admit, you and imperistan are winning me round to the idea that action has to be taken. But I believe a change in leadership and a united front of the remaining Empire provinces, along with an anti-thalmor Propaganda movement in Elsweyr is needed. Not a disorganised patriot-fest where the disgruntled nords decide to begin a war with the province standing between them and the Thalmor army.

 

The change in leadership, by the way, would ideally be brought about subtly and with the covert backing of a number of high-profile individuals in the Empire. Not with a sword in the back and a violent rejection of the Thalmor regime, a process which would only lead to a disorganised defence and a split nation.

[landy8]

Ah I see, so with absoloutely no evidence, you just trust Ulfric is a double agent despite solid Thalmor belief that he is on their side.. brilliant reasoning.

 

And that's what I like. Really.

 

It seems Thalmor are not that smart after all. Or, more likely, they've fallen to a common trap. They see only what they want to see. They like to think Ulfric is in their pocket. Well, let them think it further.

 

When I plunge that sword Ulfric gave me after the siege of Solitude into Elenven's chest, I hope it will be a surprise!

Edited June 4, 2012 by landy8

[landy8]

I have to admit, you and imperistan are winning me round to the idea that action has to be taken. But I believe a change in leadership and a united front of the remaining Empire provinces, along with an anti-thalmor Propaganda movement in Elsweyr is needed. Not a disorganised patriot-fest where the disgruntled nords decide to begin a war with the province standing between them and the Thalmor army.

 

The change in leadership, by the way, would ideally be brought about subtly and with the covert backing of a number of high-profile individuals in the Empire. Not with a sword in the back and a violent rejection of the Thalmor regime, a process which would only lead to a disorganised defence and a split nation.

 

A good plan! But sadly, this is Skyrim, not Daggerfall. It seems Bethesda's guys think more and more straightforward. Times of cloak and dagger are long gone.

 

Besides, if I recall correctly, Tbier Septim relied more on his armies, and lord Woodborn of Wayrest, who relied more on spies, has met an... unfortunate end.

[MacSuibhne]

Ulfric was "assigned" to a "handler" as an "asset". But just because the Thalmor think it is true doesn't make it so. The Germans thought Arthur Owens was their man too. Or Juan Pujol Garcia...who received medals from the Geermans but was a dedicated double agent for the British and Americans. I'm not suggesting or making a comparison...just pointing out that in all likelihood the Germans were very sure of "their" men as well.

 

Ah I see, so with absoloutely no evidence, you just trust Ulfric is a double agent despite solid Thalmor belief that he is on their side.. brilliant reasoning.

 

 

 

I don't mind when people disagree with me...if we were alike, you'd be superfluous. :whistling:

 

But I get kind of testy when people...and this example is so typical...ignore what is posted just to score a point. I just got done saying in the very paragraph you quoted that I was not comparing or suggesting that Ulfric was a double agent. There's no evidence that he is. The point I made...clear as the words in front of your face, if you'd care to actually read my post for substance...is that it would not be the first time in human experience that some smart ass thought he had the right of it and was simply, objectively wrong.

 

In my opinion, if you will not read a post for content, you don't have any credibility to respond.

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

 

Maybe, but are you willing to bet the life of every non-mer citizen of Tamriel on that suspicion?

 

 

Every non-mer citizen's life is already on the line. IIRC correctly the Thalmor have expressly stated their goal of wiping out anyone who is not Altmer.

 

And I suspect that anyone who thinks that torture and death...and the fear of it...is so inconsequential that it cannot be called "crawling", is as indifferent to lives and freedom and honour as the Thalmor think they are. "It's happening to someone else and doesn't affect me, so it's of no consequence." Is that the way of it?

 

In a world such as Skyrim...historically...30 years was literally a lifetime. Are you proposing that it is acceptable that people live their entire lives under the thumb and die believing that their children will not see a better day?

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[kibblesticks]

But I get kind of testy when people...and this example is so typical...ignore what is posted just to score a point. I just got done saying in the very paragraph you quoted that I was not comparing or suggesting that Ulfric was a double agent. There's no evidence that he is. The point I made...clear as the words in front of your face, if you'd care to actually read my post for substance...is that it would not be the first time in human experience that some smart ass thought he had the right of it and was simply, objectively wrong.

 

Right... so why go to the effort of quoting rl examples and explaining your view if it's not actually your view?

 

Just to clarify; Whilst I have evidence suggesting Ulfric is a pawn of the Thalmor, or at the very least doing what they want, you're choosing to completely dismiss that. When asked why, you give the reason that Ulfric could be a double agent (could be) and you've even gone to the effort of providing rl examples to back up your hypothosis. If you didn't want to have a discussion on whether Ulfric is what he claims, why mention double agents at all? I'm not saying he's not a double agent, only the evidence strongly suggests he's working toward Thalmor aims and to ignore the evidence when debating the situation is impossible.

 

Just so you know, I'm not trying to be malicious or "score points" as such. I find debating these things fun and I don't want it to get out of hand, so if I say something that seems out of order, please let me know and I'll try and clarify. It's a tricky issue and it's easy for everyone to get a bit too involved.

 

 

"It's happening to someone else and doesn't affect me, so it's of no consequence." Is that the way of it?

It entirely depends on what you hope to accomplish. Again, running in all guns blazing is great for glory and pride, but bad for the long term future of menkind. My view would be to weigh the balance of lives lost to the (relatively) small Thalmor inquisition, to the lives lost in a war on several fronts, that we're not prepared for. 30 years of minor human rights breaches for the continued, relatively undisturbed existance of menkind is a price I'm willing to pay yes. At least until the ruling power can get its act together and re-establish its authority.

 

Like I said, I'm all in favour of a fight against the Thalmor, but it needs to be covert, organised and, most importantly, united. Yes, if a hero of old could step up to lead the nations of the Empire to a crushing military victory that would be swell, but until such a time as said hero appears, menkind needs to be smart and avoid spilling any more of it's own blood than absoloutely neccessary.

[BrettM]

When I made my remark about the question being whether the Concordat was an irreparable mistake, I was actually thinking of whether or not the Empire could repair the mistake they made. Of course Skyrim can repair the mistake as far as they are concerned by successfully rebelling, as was pointed out. However, if the Empire can repair the mistake then it would be better not to rebel as the "strength in unity" claimants would have the right of it. Sadly, my answer to that question has to be that the Empire has no hope of fixing the situation.

 

What did the Thalmor do immediately after the signing of the Concordat? After the loss of many of their best troops and leaders in Cyrodiil, they must have had a manpower shortage. They had a fight on their hands in Hammerfell, they had people committed to Elsweyr, and Valenwood can't be as firmly under Thalmor control as many might assume given that they are conducting purges among the populace there. I can't see that they would have had the people to simultaneously place in Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Skyrim.

 

Evidence shows that they began enforcing the Concordat in Cyrodiil early on but did not really start making inroads into Skyrim until after the Markarth Incident. We know that one of the terms of the Concordat was the disbanding of the Blades, and the Thalmor did start destroying the organization at that time by attacking Cloud Ruler Temple and other Blades refuges in Cyrodiil. It would make little sense for Bolar, Delphine, and Esbern (presumably among others) to flee to Skyrim unless the Thalmor presence there at the time was limited or non-existent. Cyrodiil surely had a significant number of Talos worshippers aside from the Blades as well, so the available justiciars must have had a busy time of it for a while.

 

Along with this, the Thalmor must have also been placing "observers", "advisors", and "ambassadors" -- spies and political-control officers -- close to the seats of power in Cyrodiil. This is their practice in Skyrim and we have no reason to believe that they wouldn't have done this in Cyrodiil first. Likewise, we know that the Thalmor are recruiting assassins and informants from among the population of Skyrim, so they surely did as much in Cyrodiil.

 

I don't believe the Thalmor could have had the manpower to do all of the above in every province at the same time. If they did, then they could have annihilated the Empire during the war. It seems like a forgone conclusion that they started with Cyrodiil and have only recently begun doing the same in Skyrim. They don't have a presence in every hold capital yet, but just in a couple of key areas. If they had the power, they would surely have raised hell about the statue of Talos and the preacher in White Run, if nothing else. But you can be sure that they intend to eventually have that much power. The situation is almost certainly far worse in Cyrodiil, as they have had more time to tighten their grip on the seat of the Empire.

 

What this means is that Cyrodiil must be riddled with spies and informants, allowing the Thalmor to identify and counter any attempt the Empire makes to gather any strength that might threaten them. Meanwhile, the destruction of the Blades means that the Empire has little or no intelligence on the Thalmor. (Before anyone mentions the Penitus Oculatus, would the Thalmor allow that organization to exist if they saw any threat in it?)

 

Furthermore, the presence of informants and collaborators among the populace must be very destructive to the social fabric in Cyrodiil. There are many examples of the effects of this in dictatorships in the real world. Neighbor can't trust neighbor, unscrupulous people falsely accuse their rivals to gain advantage and curry favor, and the population becomes demoralized. This makes it very hard to organize an insurgency or underground.

 

How many examples can we think of where people have overthrown this kind of oppression without the assistance of outsiders, whether it be military support or just economic pressure? If Skyrim can stop the Thalmor takeover before it really takes root there, then an independent Skyrim may actually be the Empire's best hope of fighting the Dominion! Skyrim would be able to build strength, forge alliances, and make plans without the Thalmor being fully informed almost immediately. They could be the force that frees the Empire, but only if they don't end up in the same boat as Cyrodiil.

[kibblesticks]

BrettM, thanks for explaning how you see the situation, you make a lot of sense. I feel perhaps you're right, and maybe cyrodiil is too heavily infested with Thalmor to make a proper stand. A free Skyrim may indeed be the Empire's best chance for survival.

 

I think then, that Ulfric needs to stop advertising his cause as being about "the true sons and daughters of Skyrim" and instead make it clear that he intends to make Skyrim a bastion of freedom, and will gladly welcome any who wish to fight against the Dominion. As it stands, Ulfric's boys come across as disorganised and overly-patriotic. Whilst patriotism is all well and good, it can scare away those of other races and nationalities who would also like to fight against the Thalmor. Ulfric should be ensuring soldiers and political prisoners know that his cities are a safe haven for those wishing to aid in the rebellion.

 

 

On another note, this has been a very interesting discussion! It's completely changed my views on the Empire's position in all this. :turned:

[fraquar]

TBH, I'm not sure this is the fight for non-Nords to get involved in directly - it's too narrow in scope. Can only imagine the kind of retribution that could be expected on their kin in other lands if they are seen en-masse openly fighting in a Thalmor routing in Skyrim.

 

In reality, we don't see Elves, Argonians or Khajiit openly fighting for EITHER side in this conflict. Fighting for the Imperials is no better than fighting for the rebellion to the Thalmor - because both are the enemy.