Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[imperistan]

kibblesticks

However, I refuse to believe the Empire were in a strong position when the Great War ended, as there would be no reason to allow an army bent on the destruction of all non-mer races to gain more influence

 

The Empire wasn't in something I could call a "strong position", but they also were not at the mercy of the Dominion. Far from it. Even if they couldn't outright defeat the Dominion, there could have been a unconditional truce between them. The Dominion had already taken a massive loss and their war in Hammerfel wasn't going anywhere (as at the time of the WGC, Hammerfel forces had already pushed the Dominion back across the desert and were making headway into the stalemate that would eventually follow) so the Dominion would have been ultimately foolish not to accept a truce. The Dominion simply was not in a position for a multi-front war (as the war in Hammerfel proves they could barely handle a single-front war) and with the Empire having already defeated them in a very major and significan way, they had every political right to demand either a surrender or at worst an unconditional truce between the two powers.

 

That the Empire was in the position it was and offered the Dominion what it did shows that the Empire wasn't even acting on logic, but merely irrational and dramatic over-concern for Cyrodiil's well-being.

 

You do make some very compelling points about the Empire's motives in all this, but really it comes down to who has the best chance of defeating the Dominion, and I still believe the Empire have the intention of fighting back at some point. I don't need evidence for this, anyone in the know could see that having a mer-purist regime in charge would be a bad idea, and so I have to assume the Empire has motivations towards removing the threat. I also assume that all their best minds (military, economic and diplomatic) would have been consulted before the signing of the WGC.

 

Unless you're telling me that there's an impending military coup, there's simply no way the Empire will ever fight back against the Dominion. Or at the very least in the time frame that they must if they want a chance to win. But even then, the Empire is still going to struggle because of what it did in the past. Abandoning Hammerfel and ignoring Valenwood and Elsweyr (the Empire might not have had a real leader when these two were lost but thats really not an excuse. There were plenty of men and women who could have taken up that mantle, if only to maintain order) doomed the Empire to fail. Giving the Dominion its original demands and free reign to attack your culture doomed them to fail.

 

Long story short, the Empire screwed itself and there's no way out of it unless its entire leadership (IE, everyone from the file clerk to the Emperor himself) is removed and replaced with more appropriate and most importantly capable people. And that's essentially what the Stormcloak rebellion would lead to presuming a Stormcloak victory. Having an entirely new leadership (and one that knows what and is willing to do what has to be done right now, not 30 years later) is the only way the Empire will recover Hammerfel (the most strategically important province on Tamriel right now as far as a war with the Dominion is concerned) and even remotely keep Skyrim from breaking off.

 

As I've said before, the Dominion's main weapon of war is cloak and dagger. And the Empire's current leadership is the only military leadership on Tamriel that's going to fall for it. (again) Indeed, they're already falling for it.

 

As for the Ulfric thing, the dossier definately hints at him being an assest rather than a hinderance to the Thalmor.

 

Yes, but in the same way Hammerfel is also a Thalmor asset. As are bandits, dragons, Forsworn, etc etc etc. Ulfric is only a Thalmor asset so long as he is enemy (or rather, a hinderance) to the Empire.

 

Note "direct contact".

 

And yet that means little given the fact that its rather obvious that whatever help the Dominion has given Ulfric is ultimately fruitless for them. The fact that the Dominion see a Stormcloak victory as equally detrimental as an Imperial one proves that, and given the gradual decline in contact between the two (if "direct contact" even means what we presume it means) it shows that Ulfric was in all likelihood just using them, and in all honesty you can't seriously fault him for that.

 

An imperial victory would harm the Thalmor's position in Skyrim. Why would they say that unless they know the Imperial's ability to resist them is greater than the Stormcloaks. If the Imperials are

 

Do notice that Skyrim is in the middle of a civil war. Its much easier for the Dominion to undermine the Empire when they're able to operate freely. Even with the Empire giving them so many leisures, they still have to maintain an image that won't provoke the Empire prematurely. Even with the Empire's waning strength, the Dominion is still very vulnerable. Do note that they suffered much more in terms of loss of life than the Empire did and also lack the provinces (and fast-breeding, quick maturing races) to derive resources and personnel from. In a way, they suffered more in the Great War (and the 5 years following) than the Empire did.

 

As such if their ultimate goal is to defeat the Empire, being able to undermine them without them holding you back is a very important thing to maintain. And that's what the civil war in Skyrim does. It lets them operate in Skyrim freely because the Empire isn't going to be watching them like they would in other provinces, as the war would be a more pressing issue. And not to mention the freedom of operating in Stormcloak territory. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next game we see stories of a Thalmor group masquerading as Stormcloaks and striking out against targets.

 

I'm condemming all the Stormcloaks because they're weakening men's ability to fight against the mer-purists by spilling their own blood and refusing to see the bigger picture.

 

The Empire is doing the same thing. That they're fighting the Stormcloaks rather than realizing, understanding, and accepting the truth of their cause is proof enough of that.

 

Not a disorganised patriot-fest where the disgruntled nords decide to begin a war with the province standing between them and the Thalmor army.

 

Oh the old "The Empire is the only thing standing between Skyrim and the Dominion" shtick. How hilarious. Shall I disprove that nonsense again, or are we going to pretend that borderlines (yes, Cyrodiil is in fact between Skyrim and the Dominion. Congrats you can read a map!) actually mean anything?

 

Again, running in all guns blazing is great for glory and pride, but bad for the long term future of menkind

 

Except that's totally wrong. You can't play the long-term game with the Dominion, because by doing that you're just giving them every advantage. You're letting them:

 

1. Undermine you via cloak and dagger, ie, their main weapon of war.

2. Undermine your culture (thus creating dissent among your people and making your eventual war effort harder to maintain)

3. Rebuild forces that take nearly twice as long as yours to rebuild. (By the time most human races mature, Altmer (Ie, the single race that would make up almost the virtual entirety of the Dominion's armies) are still in their teens somewhere)

4. Giving them full view of your actual military strength and full reign to handpick targets that will cripple you

5. Giving them the chance to insert themselves into your political structure, essentially undermining your entire government.

 

If you want to defeat the Dominion, you have to fight them now. Not 30 years from now, NOW. The Dominion should have been fought to an unconditional truce 30 years ago, and then obliterated 10-15 years after that. (Depending on whether the war in Hammerfel would have continued if the Empire did what it should have done) And whats more, you need to fight them on the ground. Covert isn't going to work against the Dominion, you need to fight them where they can't keep up. And thats in a direct ground war. Just look what happened the last time the Dominion got stuck in a direct ground war against two different sets of enemies. The first time their entire army in Cyrodiil got obliterated. The second time they could barely maintain a stalemate

 

Its that simple fact that makes the Stormcloaks more likely to win against the Dominion. They haven't been undermined by the Dominion over the past 30 years and aren't going to suffer from the hardships the Empire will face in securing allies and generally just fighting the war.

 

I think then, that Ulfric needs to stop advertising his cause as being about "the true sons and daughters of Skyrim" and instead make it clear that he intends to make Skyrim a bastion of freedom, and will gladly welcome any who wish to fight against the Dominion. As it stands, Ulfric's boys come across as disorganised and overly-patriotic. Whilst patriotism is all well and good, it can scare away those of other races and nationalities who would also like to fight against the Thalmor. Ulfric should be ensuring soldiers and political prisoners know that his cities are a safe haven for those wishing to aid in the rebellion.

 

As far as the Civil War is concerned, patriotism is just fine. Post-Civil War, yes, the patriotism needs to be let go. But its a civil war, it'd be strange for patriotism not to be a major "thing" (the word I want to use is on the tip of my tongue but oh well) in recruitment and generally just pushing the war as a good thing.

 

Please please please stop with the angry use of the words "allegation" and "BS". For starters, stating that other people's ideas and opinions are "BS" is, if nothing else, against forum rules on profanity. It's also very rude..

 

Its not necessarily his fault. This discussion (and not this topic specifically, but the greater "Imperial vs Stormcloak" debate that rages across the internet) has been plagued by Imperial supporters who hinge their entire arguments on false allegations of racism on Ulfric's part, and almost every time their "evidence" is either non-existent or completely twisted and/or misread to support their accusations.

 

Not to go off-topic, but that's something that happens a lot on the internet. People get involved in a discussion over something that has a lot of potential to be hotly debated, and there is always a great mass of people who just spew ignorance and other falsehoods against one side of the debate, and that side has to always defend against it. So its natural for those on the defense to "knee-jerk" whenever the discussion they're in leans towards that side of things. Even I do it. (see my "shtick" comment above) And generally its not necessarily our faults. We just get so used to having to rapidly put the hammer down on these "arguments" that we do our best to cut them off before they even get put down in writing.

 

Honestly if we were in the middle of a real battle, we'd be the trigger happy ones because we just sat and waged constant, unceasing battle for a month straight and now we're at a point where its more peaceful and not every twig snapping is an enemy soldier.

 

warden

f you were in his position would you want to be hated by millions of civilians because you drafted their son/daughter/wife/husband/whatever and ordered them to their death? or hated for taking the "easy way out" and protecting your people in the process?

 

Problem is is that Cyrodiil never would have had to see another inch of war. Not even in terms of resources. Cyrodiil literally could have withdrawn from the war, and Skyrim, High Rock (the two provinces that never saw the war. Ever. And never would have for that matter) and Hammerfel (the province that was going to see war regardless) would have been able to maintain the war. Cyrodiil's only involvement would have been in keeping troops in a defensive capacity on the Dominion borders, and that would hardly put a strain on citizens (as many likely wouldn't be near the borders at this point anyway. Half of southern Cyrodiil did get directly ravaged and destroyed by the Dominion after all. So most survivors likely would have fled north).

[MacSuibhne]

...

 

I have to give you kudus (done) for a completely irrational sense of patience. Explaining the simplest, most obvious things over and over again to people who, in all probability, don't read more than a fraction of what you post.

 

Myself, I get impatient especially when people won't even extend the same respect...of reading my posts for meaning, substance, content and then exercising just a modicum or thoughtfulness in the the wake of reading...that they themselves demand.

 

It's like feeding baby birds...

[imperistan]

...

 

I have to give you kudus (done) for a completely irrational sense of patience. Explaining the simplest, most obvious things over and over again to people who, in all probability, don't read more than a fraction of what you post.

 

Myself, I get impatient especially when people won't even extend the same respect...of reading my posts for meaning, substance, content and then exercising just a modicum or thoughtfulness in the the wake of reading...that they themselves demand.

 

It's like feeding baby birds...

 

I think I'm just dull from inserting myself into this discussion (and countless other discussions like it). So I'm probably just so used to it that it doesn't even bother me much. In fact, if you hadn't brought up it wouldn't have even come to mind. Lol.

[MacSuibhne]

 

I think I'm just dull from inserting myself into this discussion (and countless other discussions like it). So I'm probably just so used to it that it doesn't even bother me much. In fact, if you hadn't brought up it wouldn't have even come to mind. Lol.

 

 

Well, I don't type that well (two fingers and even then...) and even at my age I still work a pretty full day but sleep more.

 

I enjoy the give and take...up to a point...as long as others are giving as well as taking. That said, I do believe that within the boundaries or reasonable civility people who come to these debates ought not expect a glide on Golden Pond. There are some really deep issues involved here. (And I'm sure that Bethesda intended it that way) Issues that require all of us to examine our own motives and lives. Someone one said something to the effect that "the unexamined life is not worth living." It can be pretty uncomfortable to have to look hard at basic assumptions and preconceptions.

 

I suspect...and experience tends to validate...that there aren't many can do it without getting defensive.

Edited June 6, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[imperistan]

While true, I still say that its more the location (and the circumstances of what this location is based around) of this discussion that causes so many of these people to come in with one-off posts that we always seem to respond to even though we generally know we'll never get a response.

 

Skyrim brought a massive influx of people into the Elder Scrolls fanbase, far more than Oblivion ever did. (and though Oblivion is cited as the game that brought TES into the mainstream, it really wasn't, and its only real success was that it managed to be one of the first (if not the first, I haven't looked at the list in a while) major releases for the Xbox 360. That was why it was so popular. For a time, it was one of the only games that was really worth getting on the 360) And the proof in that is all over the internet. Oblivion never generated even a fraction of the buzz that Skyrim has. Oblivion never saw any of its memes become so widespread that at least half of all the Youtube videos in existence has a comment that uses one of Skyrim's memes or at the very least mentions Skyrim in some way.

 

And because of that massive influx of new fans to the series (or more accurately, just Skyrim itself), it came with a massive portion of it being the sort of people we're talking about. People who don't take the discussion seriously or have no intention of actually discussing it. And people like that seldom have well thought-out opinions based on fact rather than emotion, and most certainly are not open to having their mind's changed when they're refuted.

 

I mean hell, just look at how the modding community is now. There have never been so many people that either a, don't know what they're doing with mods (and as such always ask why their game doesn't work when they've tried to install 15 mods that all try to modify the same thing) or B, just outright troll for whatever reason. There have always been these sorts of people, but in my experience going back to when the Morrowind modding community was still the main community, it was never as bad as it is now. And with Steam Workshop? That thing makes it even easier for these sorts to end up hanging around.

[robanybody2000]

Why don't i have the option "None"?

[modder3434]

Why don't i have the option "None"?

 

not sure, that would be my vote, but its one of those....."if you had to pick one, which would it be" questions.

 

ex. if you had to either smoke cigarettes or dip, which would it be?

I'd pick cigs, but if their was an option to say neither, i would have picked that one.

[Michio2013]

I go imperials because they are the only ones who can stop the real threat to freedom and Talos worship: the thalmor.

How, though? The Empire surrendered to the Thalmor and is now occupied by them. If they couldn't stop the Thalmor before, what chance do they have now or in the future? The Dominion is not stupid and is now in a position to stop the Empire from building up any strength that could challenge them. To me the Empire seems to be in a hopeless position.

 

I've already explained in previous posts why I believe the Empire can't beat the Dominion and the in-game evidence that I think supports this view. I would like to see the counter-arguments from those who keep insisting that they are the only ones who can do it. How do you (Empire supporters, not you personally) justify this claim?

 

I don't know about anybody else who goes pro-empire, but for me, I say because they have better resources. The Dominion plans, very soon, to attack the empire, or that is what general tulius thinks (he mentions that the peace with the dominion will "not last much longer") doing a comparison, the empire has much more than just Skyrim under it's authority. That means more resources to pull into a war against the dominion when they inevitably attack. More resources=more men, better weapons, better chances. Neither the SC nor the IL have a gaurantee of winning, but whichever side does win, will probably restore talos worship, as the empire would have good gains from being made by an ascendant human and the stormcloaks do it on principle. Also, there is the fact that Ulfric is a sleeper agent for the Dominion, that means that he has a conflict of interest that may impair his judgement.

 

If Ulfric had similar resources to those of the Empire and had not been listed as a sleeper for the dominion, I would side with the stormcloaks (as I did on my first play-through) but, given his conflict and inferior resources, I side with the empire because I want the dominion to get out of my skyrim.

 

If you have any intel I am missing, please tell me, I like to have the full story and I know I probably haven't found all the lore yet.

[fraquar]

Not sure how anyone can say the Empire was in a strong position when they basically accepted by some accounts the very offer they refused which led to the war to begin with.

 

Lets put this into perspective here. If the Empire wasn't weak, who in their right mind would sign up to fight for the Empire now knowing full well they are likely to just risk their lives for absolutely nothing?

 

Personally, I don't know how they continue to field an army after that.

[Deleted4666244User]

lets look at the WGC this way-Mede had two options when it came to the WGC:

1. Continue the war, drafting multiples of farmers/merchants/mercenaries/ETC. and probably cause more unrest in the Empire, when those children/parents/spouses/etc. are killed in Action.
   
2. Sign the WGC and hope that they can prepare for war in a secret way and catch the Thalmor off guard and force them to surrender all territory back to Empire, including Alinor.
   

 

so, now which choice looks like it will save more lives in the LONG run?