AstralFire Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Skyrim's best interest is the Empire, even though that's a good argument you put up there about the Empire needing to have pressed the advantage in that last war. Hammerfell held out against the Aldmeri in part because the Aldmeri had gotten quite beat-up, too. A Skyrim that's outright hostile to the Empire is going to just make both Skyrim and what remains of the Empire easier to destroy. That said, I totally can't buy into any argument which has as a major premise that assassinating a king just because you can, makes you a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrettM Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I find very little to disagree with in Imperistan's description of the situation (at least in the first half of his post. ;)). It isn't that both sides are "bad guys" or both are "good guys". Both sides have individuals that are flawed and others who are decent. As someone once said, there is no cause so pure and holy and right that it won't attract a certain percentage of nutburgers as supporters. It isn't supposed to be an easy and obvious decision. You have to listen to people talk and weigh their arguments against what you know of TES history and current events if you really want to role-play the decision. NPCs will express opinions, quite sincerely, and you must decide if their opinion is well founded or if they haven't properly weighed all the factors. In-game books will provide more information, but the authors are often clearly biased and you have to take their claims with a grain of salt. Kaindjinn, keep in mind that it has been 200 years since Oblivion, and the Empire is NOT the same one you knew from that game. The Septim dynasty is over and there was some kind of fight for the throne that put the Mede dynasty in place. These troubles seemed to have turned Cyrodiil's attentions inward and the other provinces were neglected for a long time. This neglect cost them Valenwood and Elsweyr even before the Great War began. The Empire seems to have been growing steadily weaker and becoming more insular and parochial. There are many reasons why a non-Nord might have no love for the Empire and might see an independent Skyrim as the best hope against the Thalmor threat. The Thalmor have been conducting secret purges of families in Valenwood, so a Wood Elf might want to think twice about supporting an Empire that is a client state of the Thalmor in all but name. A Dunmer, OTOH, might see a strong and independent Skyrim as a greater potential threat than a remote Empire, especially considering the weakened condition of Morrowind. So racial politics and history enter into the decision as well. The only real constant is that everyone hates the Thalmor. Even those who support the Empire concede that the Concordat was a major mistake and that the Stormcloaks have some justice in their cause. The question is whether the Concordat is an irreparable mistake, making rebellion the only viable response. That's the decision you have to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not a lore guy either, but from posts I've read from people who are lore guys, the thing that stands out in my mind is that the Thalmor are determined to wipe men off the face of Tamriel. That alone makes the statement that "the Empire is best for Skyrim" suspect if not entirely self-delusional. The Empire is colluding with a foreign power whose stated and most sought after goal is to exterminate Nords, Redguards, Bretons, Stormcloaks and the Empire itself. The Empire has sold out. You need only encounter one Thalmor patrol (and there are many) leading one poor citizen of Skyrim to his own execution...presumably for worshiping a god that the Thalmor have proscribed...to realize that the Thalmor are the real power in Skyrim, not the Empire--the Empire is just their puppet/lackey/thrall. Go with your first impression...you know, when they are about to chop off your head. Isn't that a Thalmor Justicar presiding over what should properly be an Imperial State function? Why are the Thalmor involved at all? Because the Empire is gone. It exists in name only. Nothing has changed since you escaped Helgen. Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Skyrim's best interest is the Empire, even though that's a good argument you put up there about the Empire needing to have pressed the advantage in that last war. Hammerfell held out against the Aldmeri in part because the Aldmeri had gotten quite beat-up, too. A Skyrim that's outright hostile to the Empire is going to just make both Skyrim and what remains of the Empire easier to destroy. That said, I totally can't buy into any argument which has as a major premise that assassinating a king just because you can, makes you a good guy. That would be true of the Empire was still the same Empire it was 200 years ago. But its not. The Empire you're trying to save has already been destroyed. I still don't understand how Empire supporters can look at that very simple fact and still believe what they're fighting for is worth it. Further, only Cyrodiil could possibly be taken in the next war with the Dominion unless the Dominion is given the 50-75 extra years it needs to build up the forces necessary to directly take on every army that can be mustered throughout Tamriel. And thats only because as of Skyrim's events, the Empire's national structure (IE, Cyrodiil's national structure) is falling apart rather rapidly. Meanwhile everyone else is remaining more or less stable and capable. As for Skyrim, no Dominion army (Unless that one that could be built some 50 years down the line) would be able to successfully invade it. There's a reason you don't invade a mountainous country (when your only feasible route of entry is through the mountains no less) populated by a people who on average, are going to be individually stronger and more prepared to fight in a direct ground war than your own forces. And you especially don't do that when you have another two or 3 other hostile countries to invade (one of which has already fought you and will be even harder to combat) before you can even get near Skyrim. Even if the Civil War leaves Skyrim less than ready to get back into it again, the Dominion will still have an extremely hard time successfully taking over Skyrim, very much less the rest of Tamriel. Eventually the Dominion will either have to give up again or exhaust their resources until they can't continue. And Ulfric didn't kill the king (assassinate is an inaccurate term) "just because he can". And Mac hit the head on the nail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) The question is whether the Concordat is an irreparable mistake, making rebellion the only viable response. That's the decision you have to make. I agree with most, if not all, you've said. However, it does beg the question doesn't it: How could the WGC, and its aftereffects, possibly be repaired? Kick the Thalmor out? Welcome to the Stormcloak Rebellion. Refuse to allow the Thalmor patrols that persecute citizens of Skyrim and worshipers of Talos?...may I have the honour of naming Ulfric Stormcloak to you? Maybe renegotiate the treaty? What incentive does the Thalmor have to renegotiate? Why would a people so abused, and targeted for extermination as well, wish to revisit and reinvigorate the terms of their own demise--as a political entity, as a people, as a species? Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaindjinn Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Going from what's been said and from what I've heard in-game, it sounds like the Empire is the old guard and it's time for some new blood to rule Tamriel, whoever it may be. And I have a special problem with the Empire if they allowed Valenwood to fall to the Thalmor: My Bosmer is a proud Wood Elf! (Though I would like the source to make sure someone isn't telling me what I'd want to hear.) My only remaining hesitations are with Ulfric himself: in his "traditional" duel with the High King, from what I've heard he didn't "disarm" the King so much as "shout his arms off." If he wanted to be a traditional Nord, as well as a fair duelist, he should have refrained from shouting. I'll admit I haven't dug too deep into that because I have done a whole lot without ever taking a side. He also seems power-hungry, just from what I've heard, though the speakers may have been biased. One last thing: I already became a Thane of Solitude (thank you, jewel-finding blessing). Will joining the Stormcloaks destroy my home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralFire Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I should note that I haven't played Oblivion and barely played Morrowind - my opinions are formed entirely from playing Skyrim. I see: an Empire that made tactical mistakes and is weaker, but is still pretty much the only hope of surviving the Thalmor long-term. The collusion is pretty much the result of Ulfric playing right into the Thalmor's hands - remember that the Thalmor actually want him alive, because they find him useful to causing trouble and giving them excuses to ride the Empire hard. Additionally, the worst thing that's happened to me from the Empire was - yeah, they tried to execute me because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Understandably a little upset about that, I think. On the other hand, the first thing I see out of Hadvar is trying to protect a little kid and saving my life first chance he got. I wasn't happy about the torturers in the basement, but they're dead now and Haddy didn't object. And I don't know how anyone can think Ulfric's murder of Torygg proves any sort of moral rightness. It proves that a guy who studied with the Greybeards who was also a veteran warrior could outmatch a boy of a ruler in a fistfight that involves magic screaming. It might have been in broad daylight and not all that secret, but it was definitely sudden, he definitely knew he'd committed a crime since he went and ran instead of standing his ground and invoking Nord law, and it definitely had a political agenda. The fact that Ulfric even thought that was a good idea when multiple people commented that Torygg would probably have let him had his way if he'd -talked- things out instead? (Torygg -admired- Ulfric, remember?) That tells me that the Stormcloaks lack practice in thinking about tactics and strategy. The Empire failed out of a lack of aggression more than a lack of mind in the Great War, sure, but a bunch of people who think with their muscles aren't going to make anything better. Edited June 2, 2012 by AstralFire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) My only remaining hesitations are with Ulfric himself: in his "traditional" duel with the High King, from what I've heard he didn't "disarm" the King so much as "shout his arms off." If he wanted to be a traditional Nord, as well as a fair duelist, he should have refrained from shouting. Why?! In Ulfric's world...and POV...shouting is a skill. In all probability, given his history, he was/is a better swordsman than most of his peers. Should he refrain from using those skills because it gave him an "unfair" advantage? How about his height and weight and musculature? How about all these mages running around? Should they stop using magic (or never on melee warriors at the very least)? And iIt is no coincidence that shouts are listed in your inventory under magic. All that said, it is still a red herring. Torygg was High King. If he didn't think the dual was legal he would have been within his rights and powers to...if nothing else...say "no". If he didn't feel up to the challenge, he had all the authority in Skyrim to have Ulfric thrown into prison. The logical conclusion is that either he accepted...even endorsed...the legality of the duel, or he was unfit to rule if only because his judgement was unsound/unwise. Parenthetically, having accepted the legality of the duel, he set a precedent for generations to come...that is if his decisions as High King mean, or ever meant, anything. Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralFire Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 There's a difference between a duel out of tradition, and a war. Commentary from everyone, including Torygg - and note that being in Sovngarde tends to erase a lot of mortal-life grudges, like with Olaf and the bard - shows that it was unthinkable that he'd use the voice against someone who had no training in it in a duel. No one cares if you shout at bandits who are murdering people, on the other hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacSuibhne Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Bethesda horn-swaggled all of us didn't they? I mean it all comes down to a basic set of questions--either you rely in "feelings" and unsubstantiated hearsay...speculation, interpretation...or you rely on what is actually known...facts, logic. "Heart" or mind. And proceeding from those choices/preferences...you either decide in favour of freedom for Skyrim and its people, or appeasement and thralldom...even extermination...to the Thalmor/AD. It's a pretty conundrum isn't it? Situational ethics hidden right there in plain sight in a seemingly mindless video game. Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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