Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[StormHammer81]

Well that sounds good, ok? You would have made Socrates or Plato very proud and indeed, that is how I used to be. I say used to be because not too long ago, I went through my own ahhh "Great War." One thing I learned, is it's kool if people want to be themselves and do things their way. That's fine and we need diversity because you might be able to do something better than I, ok? Now. Keeping that in mind, try to imagine instead of... one United States we have no less than 50 separate states. :D That means each state:

 

- Has it's own currency

- Has it's own laws

- Has it's own Constitution

- Has it's own Alliances with other states or outside powers

- Has it's own Military

- Has it's own roadways which may not connect to the other states

- Has it's agenda

- Has a different system of Gov than most other states or just different in general

- Has it's own resp citizens

 

Ok? Now we're all separate and all going are own way. How much chaos do you think doing things this way would cause? *BOOM* an enemy has just declared War on one or a few of these states. Now, as I learned from my experiences, the "enemy" doesn't care what your Philosophy is. The enemy doesn't care if 25 of these states oppose it and the other 25 are neutral and want to be friends. The enemy doesn't care about what each state values. The enemy is there to Destroy, just like in WWI & WWII. Europe was divided in a manner very similar to this. All these states and dutchies and counties and Monarchs and and and they were ALL Gobbled Up. Because, each state said to itself, well fck-it they'll never bother me, I like whichever faction blah blah blah. Now, I'm presenting a scenario here to illustrate my point that... you can have diversity and all that cushy stuff, however, a system of UNITY is also needed for a society to survive. You can't do it all on your own. Sometimes you must sacrifice some right and freedoms to save your neighbors because no matter what state you come from, you are all the same person.

 

This similar discussion was also played out by me and another group of people one time back when I played wow. The alliance folks are fickle and childish, not taking orders, just all you ever heard from them was what THEY WANTED. But they wouldn't work or take anything from you. So everyone was doing their own thing and it was like pulling teeth to get those uhhh kids to cooperate and take down a boss or fight off the Hord. The Hord. Went to their side and it was like night and day. Everyone had their way, to a point, but we all understand that NO MATTER how BAD things became, we had to stay together and find a way to make it work to survive. And that's one reason why the Hord RULES :D

 

Last example and I'll stop boring you to tears. Alexander the Great dies, his Empire is almost immediately broken up in multiple competing factions. Rome is growing up and taking a look at the neighborhood. King Phllip V is having a mild disagreement with his Greek ahhh "League?" neighbors and it becomes a conflict which is escalated into a WAR by ANOTHER GREEK LEAGUE (STATE) who doesn't like Macedonia or King Phillip. Macedonia gets massacred and assimilated into Rome. Rome doesn't stop there and continues interfering with Greek politics. Outraged, 2 of the 3 remaining states declare War on Rome. They fall. The 3rd state stayed neutral because it wasn't there problem... until now. Then they are conquered. Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemaic Egyptians now are in trouble. Now they have Rome on their doorsteps and the Parthians are starting to look a little more like Persia II each day. Can you guess how this ends?

 

Ulfric was selfish to start this sh*t now. This is NOT the time to bicker about what happened 30 yrs ago. This will only lead to the demise of all parties. Thalmor are regrouping and judging by their sh*tty attitude, they are NOT afraid of man. Man will be broken up into at least 4 kingdoms in Stormcloaks win. One will ally with Thalmor against the other two. One will remain neutral and then just do the math. I understand what TM2 did was wrong and sometimes a central gov can be oppressive like an enemy, like the US Gov is becoming, however, the people always have the right to take back their Gov. If you follow Ulfric, you're just replacing the Empire with something worse, like Fascism.

 

Conditions for Fascism:

 

- Mistrust of Business and Corporations

- You and your "Great Race" consider yourselves superior to everyone else

- This results in "Forced Resettlement", among other horrible things

- The master race are strongly motivated and dedicated to the nation, fielding very strong NATIONALISM

 

Ulfric has all of these traits COMBINED. He is the Jarl of Wendhelm, therefore, he dictates the policies of that state. Murders and rapists running around, forced resettlement, city is garbage, everyone else is fanatically behind him, he chooses who he'll deal with based on RACE etc etc etc

 

No need for me to go any further than this. The thing is what it is. If the Thalmor weren't on our doorstep, then that would be one thing. However the situation is TOO DANGEROUS and TOO VOLATILE to stop and start trying to reinvent government and who is right and who is politically or racially correct or whatever. Only a child would want to start a Civil War in this bad situation. So what if TM2 has had 30 yrs to do something, Ulfric has also had 30yrs to do something. Why now? Is it because of the moons? The way the sun sets? Could it have something to do with a stronger Thalmor presence? Maybe they've got their wind back? And why take the fight to the Empire and not the Thalmor? I know why.

Edited June 24, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

^lol

[dragonslayer2k12]

WOW!

 

I wish I had replied in this thread AFTER reading it instead of where I first replied some days ago in another thread about the story of this game.

 

 

Didn't read a lot but some and agree with imperistan about a lot of things.

 

What I can't stand is the story of this game it is really messed up. The writers want you to pick a side and stick to the consequences of it but there doesn't have to be an all out victory for one side or the other. They could instead be convinced by the dragonborn and his slaying of the head dragon and trip to heaven and back aka sovengarde to cooperate and wipe out the thalmor. I haven't done the dark brotherhood quests yet because I got all worked up and just wiped them out for commander maro but I am sure I missed something in there about WHY a certain emporer had to go not just that he had to go.

 

Of course I am sure that a DLC will be made that allows this cooperation but how will they solve the problem of the player finishing one side or the other of the civil war if they make such a cooperative DLC? So they can't do that they have to instead just make it so that either the player becomes the high king if they sided with the empire or some important npc does that likes the player and then the story goes on to defeat the thalmor. I doubt we will see the defeat of the aldmeri dominon in a DLC but thalmor hunting will do just fine.

 

I lopped a thalmors head off once near falkreath during some magic quest after finishing that college quest line and becoming arch mage. Watching that jerk thalmors head roll down the hill was awesome and would have been even better if the game had bugged out and kept the head spouting thalmor snobbery the whole way down the hill lol.

 

hopefully there will be some DLC or exansion at some point that allows the player to slay certain daedra... I am sure that hall of the vigilant would finally be useful for something in such a thing why is it there in the first place anyway?

 

The only thing that makes sense in relation to not wiping out the thalmor is that some kind of DLC could be made that explains what happened to the falmer and only the thalmor really know or something like that. Keep in mind that elves have been oppressed in the storyline too so looking at the whole story after going through it I think that sort of thing will come out sooner or later.

 

 

Oh and I voted the empire are the good guys only because I have played through both sides of the civil war quests and it really looks like the writers were trying to make the empire look better overall. Crying queens and smashed up imperial holds with missing kids of a jarl and some burning imperial owned houses makes me think that I should not have sided with ulfric. But I wish that I could have kept certain holds under stormcloak control to get rid of certain sorry arse jarls and keep more corrut rulers out in favor of clueless rulers that are supposed to be good lol talkin bout you riften!

[Systex]

@bigmagy1981

Dafuq?

[MacSuibhne]

[...]

 

 

What you describe is Federalism--the founding principle for the United States of America; the banner under which we fought two wars against England. And a voluntary association that lasted until the American Civil War and the Grand Army of the Republic.

 

Also the basis for the European Union. And the motivating impulse for the Allies to fight the Germans in WWII--to preserve the right of these small nations to retain their cultural and national heritage--language, currency, traditions, religions.

 

There is also a significant difference between a voluntary alliance between countries or states with common purpose, and one nation holding others in military or political bondage...as a client states...so that it can exploit their resources and population.

 

Every nation in Tamriel is authoritarian...it is a defining characteristic of feudalism. Authoritarianism is also to some extent a characteristic of republics which tend to centralize power. Power when concentrated is almost by definition authoritarian.

 

The Empire is not a democracy (despite those who wish to identify with it and in doing so, see what they wish to see). It is also authoritarian. And it is not looking for a voluntary alliance with Skyrim or Hammerfell. It is looking to subdue them...bend them to their will.

 

If it were otherwise, the Empire would simply let Skyrim go...let it become independent. At which point, it might find that it had a voluntary, and willing, ally. But then it might have to pay more for iron and corundum and gold ore...

 

The comparison of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks to Germany is skewed, at best.

 

Has it escaped your notice that Ulfic doesn't send stormtroopers to round up and condemn people for their religion? What is the effective difference between the Thalmor patrols and the Gestapo? If Skyrim were larger and had more people than could be quickly processed (tortured and beheaded in the basement of the Thalmor Embassy) could we expect "camps?"

 

I know...you're going to tell me that the Empire doesn't have control of the Thalmor patrols (or some similar apologia/excuse). So what does that mean in your world? That the Empire is not Germany but rather Vichy France? Or Poland? Ask the people who lost fathers and sons to the Thalmor if they care about such fine distinctions.

 

And where is the resettlement that you claim Ulfric has forced on people? Or is this just more of the same old emotional, sophomoric cant that is characteristic of Imperial apologists?

 

Finally, you raise the issue of race again...if Ulfric (or even Galmor) is racist because of who they associate with or who they're related to...well, does the name Jeremiah Wright strike a familiar note?

 

And before the self-righteous and self-congratulatory outrage spews forth, let me point out that I am drawing no conclusions...I prefer to judge a man by his own words and deeds. But for all intents and purposes, that's not a widely shared principle among those arguing that Ulfric is a racist, is it?

 

The point I'm making is not about racism...in all of this, it's about hypocrisy.

Edited June 24, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[rizon72]

Having played a bit of both I see really not much of a difference (playing wise) between the two. That I think is a big help in this game not having one good or bad. If they had put a good guy/bad guy I think it would have complicated things with other storylines. I usually play an Imperial so I usually go with the Imperial storyline.

[StormHammer81]

Yeah, I would have nothing whatsoever against Ulfric and the Stormcloaks being able to keep their land even run it their way. That's not the ending I would prefer, but I can more than respect that. It would be for the best for them to stop this war and settle on something, find some common ground. I do believe in that still. Cause no matter who wins, there's still going to be anger and resentment and division. Be best for them to settle and work something out in the long run.

[kevkiev]

... Of course I am sure that a DLC will be made that allows this cooperation but how will they solve the problem of the player finishing one side or the other of the civil war if they make such a cooperative DLC? So they can't do that they have to instead just make it so that either the player becomes the high king if they sided with the empire or some important npc does that likes the player and then the story goes on to defeat the thalmor. I doubt we will see the defeat of the aldmeri dominon in a DLC but thalmor hunting will do just fine...

 

Alas, I'd be pretty confident making a hefty bet against this happening. Considering the, imo, rather thin character and storyline development in Skyrim, and that the Beth decided to make the first DLC about vampires, I'd wager that Skyrim DLC's will be pretty much unconnected to the storyline in the vanilla game. Which would be too bad - one of the things I really liked about FONV is how the DLC's all kinda tied together with themselves and the main storyline. (Not so much with Honest Hearts, though it did that to some extent with expanding on Joshua Graham.) I'd wager all future DLC's will be disconnected among each other, and have only a tenuous connection to the game itself. I laughed a nervous little laugh at the interview with the one Bethesda art guy who mentioned that they decided to expand on vampires with Dawnguard because vampires were "undeveloped" in the base game. As though that wouldn't apply to 90% of the characters. (The Vigilants of Stendarr come immediately to mind.)

 

I've seen more thinking about lore, storyline and characters in this thread (and other similar ones) than I'd bet occurred in all the Bethesda development meetings combined. In my opinion, this game is about world space and visual effect and pretty much nothing else. The story is fleshed out just enough to give your character a reason to go here and there and attack this person/creature or another. It's an, albeit visually-stunning (until you get up close at least - then you need some hirez textie mods), adventure game. No more, no less. With all due respect to the posters here, I think a person will drive themselves crazy thinking too hard about lore and storyline in skyrim - those are just afterthoughts in this game.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally slamming skyrim. I play a TON and, even though the quest bugs drive me nuts sometime, I can't seem to keep away. I think it's definitely worth the $$ I paid and then some. If it were somehow wiped off my steam account, I'd probably even buy it again. And I'll probably end up buying all the DLCs to continue the fun. (Having said that, I wouldn't have bought it at all without having access to texture mods - I can't stand pixel soup. A big reason why I waited a few months before snagging the game.) But I've accepted the fact that I'm not really role-playing at all. I just like riding my horse around a pretty world and getting into fights. 'Cuz that's all there really is.

 

[/end off topic rambling]

[dragonslayer2k12]

The fun of the horse riding if you are old enough to remember probably came from playing that first zelda64 game on the nintendo 64 system. That was fun at the time shooting arrows from that horse while riding and now all these years later here it is in skyrim!

 

Like you said the people here probably talked about the lore more than the developers ever did and that is because these days it is only about money not art or culture or anything else. So we have to depend on the modding community every time a game comes out to fill in the gaps left by the developers. I really hate that because the best experience of a video game is the first time you play it and know nothing about it yet. Bugs and left out lore ruin the immersion and the first time experience to an extent.

[BrettM]

Yes, the Thalmor have magic, and the Nords don't. However, the Redguards (strongly against magic in their own right) held off the Thalmor, and the Nords managed to defeat the Falmer in the Merithic and First Eras, who where competent at magic (and guessing from encounters with them in Skyrim, they were adept at shock magic).

The Nords had battlemages and no distrust of magic during the Merethic and First Eras, long before they had any Tongues. Note that some of the draugr, who are all ancient Nords, are magic users. Felldir appears to be a mage, though he is given only warrior skills in the game, and may well have been a battlemage before he became a Tongue. If you tell Tsun in Sovngarde that your right to enter the Hall of Valor comes from your position as Archmage of Winterhold, he will tell you that mages were once honored among the Nords and the profession is still honored in Sovngarde.

 

I'm not clear on when and why magic became distrusted, but that distrust has not always been an aspect of Nord culture and tradition. Perhaps it isn't too late to reverse the trend and begin training a new generation of mages for the fight against the Thalmor. Perhaps a Dragonborn Archmage is just the person who can give magery a better public image in Skyrim.