Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[AstralFire]

-headtilt-

 

That would... only be true if the only argument against Ulfric and the Stormcloaks was that he used the Voice against Torygg. There's a lot more weight on both sides than that. :| You're also relying on 'feelings' and speculation just as much to assume that the Empire is not merely biding its time to regain strength. There's more evidence in-game than not that the Empire's a bigger threat to the Aldmeri Dominion than a divided Empire and Skyrim, after all; the Thalmor consider Ulfric one of their most valuable unwilling assets. As people whose only vested interest in the conflict is how dangerous the end result is to their own prosperity, they're the single most reliable in-game source on this particular element of the matter.

Edited June 2, 2012 by AstralFire

[imperistan]

My only remaining hesitations are with Ulfric himself: in his "traditional" duel with the High King, from what I've heard he didn't "disarm" the King so much as "shout his arms off." If he wanted to be a traditional Nord, as well as a fair duelist, he should have refrained from shouting. I'll admit I haven't dug too deep into that because I have done a whole lot without ever taking a side. He also seems power-hungry, just from what I've heard, though the speakers may have been biased.

 

Nord's have a great tendency for exaggeration, and at this point in Tamriels history, most of the common rabble won't even know what the Thu'um is. And combine that with those in Solitude (who are going to exaggerate things purely to paint Ulfric as an evil-doer) then you'll get rumors of Ulfric shouting Torygg to pieces, when in reality he merely disarmed him of his weapon.

 

And besides that, it still wouldn't have been a "fair" fight even if Ulfric hadn't used the Thu'um. Torygg would have been defeated regardless. Look to one of my previous posts as to why he didn't just defeat him in conventional combat. Fact of the matter is, if Torygg was a proper warrior he could have muscled through Ulfric's voice (which isn't anything special) and eliminated the advantage it gave Ulfric. But Torygg was no such warrior.

 

I see: an Empire that made tactical mistakes and is weaker, but is still pretty much the only hope of surviving the Thalmor long-term. The collusion is pretty much the result of Ulfric playing right into the Thalmor's hands - remember that the Thalmor actually want him alive, because they find him useful to causing trouble and giving them excuses to ride the Empire hard.

 

They also don't want him to win. Again, refer to my previous posts if you need to see why the Empire is not going to stop the Dominion.

 

It might have been in broad daylight and not all that secret, but it was definitely sudden, he definitely knew he'd committed a crime since he went and ran instead of standing his ground and invoking Nord law, and it definitely had a political agenda.

 

Of course it had a political agenda, and why the hell wouldn't he run? If everyone in Solitude would have been willing to accept Nordic tradition, Ulfric wouldn't have had to ever leave Solitude at all. Fact of the matter is, no one in Solitude except for the solemn few was going to accept what happened. If Ulfric had stayed, he would have been executed, no matter what he said about tradition.

 

The fact that Ulfric even thought that was a good idea when multiple people commented that Torygg would probably have let him had his way if he'd -talked- things out instead? (Torygg -admired- Ulfric, remember?)

 

There's no such thing as a Great King that waits to decide whether he will go to war because some insignificant Jarl's son hasn't come and told him to yet. If Torygg was a real High King of Skyrim he wouldn't have needed Ulfric's word to start a war. He would have acted like a man and made up his own mind.

[fraquar]

In the end, no matter what race you are the Imperials were trying to take your head off at Helgen. Never forget that.

 

Join the Stormcloaks and crush the Imperial bastards......

[kaindjinn]

Well, Ben the Spectacular the Wood Elf (descendant of the Hero of Kvatch, Ben the Amazing) does need to get ahead in life. (Which is why he married Senna.)

 

I guess I'll go with the Stormcloaks. I do usually like blue over red when it comes to color designations. :P

[MacSuibhne]

-headtilt-

 

That would... only be true if the only argument against Ulfric and the Stormcloaks was that he used the Voice against Torygg. There's a lot more weight on both sides than that. :| You're also relying on 'feelings' and speculation just as much to assume that the Empire is not merely biding its time to regain strength. There's more evidence in-game than not that the Empire's a bigger threat to the Aldmeri Dominion than a divided Empire and Skyrim, after all; the Thalmor consider Ulfric one of their most valuable unwilling assets. As people whose only vested interest in the conflict is how dangerous the end result is to their own prosperity, they're the single most reliable in-game source on this particular element of the matter.

 

 

I fully understand that the excuse the Empire gives for not throwing the Thalmor out, for allowing armed patrols from a foreign power, for allowing that same foreign power to persecute and even summarily execute citizens of Skyrim, is that they are biding their time...ostensibly to gain strength.

 

What in the world do you think the Thalmor are doing? If they could begin the pogroms immediately, they would.

 

We only have one set of dossiers...written from the perspective of an overweeningly arrogant, self-satisfied, hostile faction. If the Thalmor have a dossier on Ulfric, you can bet that they are thorough enough to have a dossier on every player in the conflict. What do you think the dossier on Torygg said? Or Tullius? Or the dossier on Elisif. Do you honestly believe they are flattering?

 

Go on, pull the other one.

Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

There's a difference between a duel out of tradition, and a war. Commentary from everyone, including Torygg - and note that being in Sovngarde tends to erase a lot of mortal-life grudges, like with Olaf and the bard - shows that it was unthinkable that he'd use the voice against someone who had no training in it in a duel. No one cares if you shout at bandits who are murdering people, on the other hand.

 

From Ulfric's POV...as Imperistan suggested...Thuums are part of his, and Skyrim's, heritage. All you have to do is go into any of the old Nordic ruins to run across ancient warriors using shouts.

 

Ulfric is making the point that the old ways are just as valid and, in the face of it, surely more honourable than selling out to the Thalmor.

 

But if you want to blame someone for the Civil War...blame the Greybeards. As wise as they are supposed to be (or people would like to fantasize they be), they accepted and trained Ulfric...obviously, even to these untrained eyes, not a good candidate for the monastic life.

 

Not much wisdom in that decision.

Edited June 2, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[AstralFire]

I don't think particularly much of the Greybeards - the only reason I side with them over Delphine is that her bloodlust is more problematic than their nonsense. While they are to blame for this in part, Ulfric has ownership of his own mistakes.

 

If Ulfric was a wise man himself, if Ulfric's first goal was really what is best for Skyrim, he would have taken Torygg's ear and brought a united Skyrim to separate from the Empire, with methods that would not have left plenty of old war heroes who respected him (Jarl Balgruuf) standing on the other side. He was either too lusty for power or too impatient to see that* and just started with metaphorically lopping people's heads off. Nor would Ulfric have hypocritically been so eager to suppress the residents of the Reach back when, who were making overtures to be recognized as a legitimate province in their own right - those actions lead straight into much of the current instability in Markarth, not to mention the ridiculous amount of power the Silver-Blood family wields over the citizens there. I can't decide if I hate them or the Blackbriars more. (I dislike them both enough that there's a good chance if the Stormcloaks kicked both out of power rather than crowning the Silver-Bloods and still doing nothing about Maven, I'd go Stormcloak; but clearly whatever the leaderships' motivations, they're no better at removing corruption than the Empire.)

 

I missed it if anyone else brought up the issue with the Reach before - I saw broad 'Ulfric's a racist!' comments, but I didn't notice anything that specifically alluded to his initiative to retake the Reach while the Empire was predisposed to just let things develop and accept a Reach province. AFAIK, you cannot pin too much of how the Dunmer are treated in Windhelm specifically on Ulfric (even if that is a bit suspicious), but you certainly can pay attention to what he did over in Markarth.

 

* I lean towards powerlust more than impatience; either out of respect of the man, regret for how things happened with Torygg, or the difficulty in taking Whiterun, Ulfric clearly states that he expects Balgruuf to come around, and doesn't want to attack Whiterun initially.

Edited June 2, 2012 by AstralFire

[landy8]

There are no "good guys" in this war.

 

I vote for Stormcloaks. Why? See the Was Ulfric right to kill the High King? topic.

[scrdest]

The Stormcloaks here raised a point about the Empire being concerned with Cyrodiil and Cyrodiil only - all fine, but why exactly do you assume Ulfric isn't just going to do the same with Skyrim?

 

At best, Stormcloak victory would result in Talos worship being allowed, deterring the total apocalypse. But assuming they win, throw the Thalmor out and all - what next? The Dominion is not just going to let them be, they want to stamp out Talos worship. With the Empire getting kicked out of Skyrim, they have no reason to go and help Ulfric if Skyrim gets invaded by the Dominion. Well, if the Emperor decides it might be good in the long run, Skyrim would just get reclaimed by the Empire, at least in parts.

 

I tend to dislike the Stormcloaks because they uncomfortably parallel certain XX-century European regime [GODWIN'S LAW WARNING!] - I mean, say what you want about Ulfric being or not being a racist, the Stormcloaks as a whole opress:

1. Argonians
   
2. Khajits
   
3. Dunmer
   

and then there is the whole Reach situation. Also, notice the highlighting of the White Gold Concordat as a treason and a lost opportunity to win the war - that (along with the reasons for the opression of Dunmer) echoes the 'backstabbed' rhetoric used in interbellum Germany.

 

On the other hand, most people get a bad impression with the Empire due to Helgen scene - but it may be blamed on the Imperial captain, who got a bit ax crazy. Hadvar on the other hand, is sympathetic to you.

 

First impressions aside, the main problem appears to be the Empire appeasing Thalmor. This is undoubtedly the biggest flaw in their image. Drawing on the pre-WWII parallels, I guess they are trying to deter the next Great War even for its own sake. On the other hand, I did not see Empire actively helping Thalmor beyond their required duties from WGC. At the time of Skyrim, they are trying to manage a lot of things simultaneously and as a result, they cannot afford a hugeass army invading.

[penguinchao]

I still hold to the belief that the true "bad guys" are the Talmor; that's something we can all agree on. The best hope for defeating them is a united Imperial empire, but if Ulfric succeeds in seceding from the empire, there will not be a united empire, but a divided one. You can say what you want about Ulfric's persona, Tullius, the Empire, and the Stormcloaks, but at the end of the day, we should look at this in the scope of Tamriel as a whole, not just Skyrim, and how to defeat the Talmor, the true enemies of freedom.