Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[StormHammer81]

Here you are:

 

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cjv14n2-7.html

 

AND on Feudalism:

 

http://socyberty.com/history/the-effectiveness-of-feudalism/

 

Pay close attention to ALL the parts in here that mention people being ahh "Hired" and where it talks about Economics and how the land was divided up. The concept for Tamriel was based off of information like this, so you can't say that it doesn't apply to Tamriel. Again, *some people* assume that Medieval or Feudal societies were simple and crude. Truth is, they were very complex and intrigue prone.

 

I post this not to argue with anyone, I want people to see my point as well. Job creation aka "hiring people" does NOT necessarily mean socialism. Every Gov since the dawn of man has hired people aka "A Jobs Program" for different reasons. Ulfric is doing the same, just not with the Dark Elves.

 

Furthermore, you don't have to control the means of production in order to "Hire People." Socialism and fascism are about ownership of industry and the private sector. Nothing wrong with the Gov hiring people, that's totally different. However, there is a similarity here, because like someone said, "It's a feudalistic system" and that means the King / Lords own all the land meaning they MUST hire people to work the land. Just follow the hierarchy if you don't see it. King ---> Lord ---> Knight ---> Pretty much everyone else.

 

There are also numerous jobs a player can take on in Skyrim, someone had to create those jobs... like the Jarl (Feudal Lord who owns the hold), according to the Feudal System Model.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

"The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim." - Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak

Edited July 5, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

I post this not to argue with anyone, I want people to see my point as well. Job creation aka "hiring people" does NOT necessarily mean socialism. Every Gov since the dawn of man has hired people aka "A Jobs Program" for different reasons. Ulfric is doing the same, just not with the Dark Elves.

 

Thing is, there's a difference between a King taking on people to work the land and do other jobs, and giving incomes to people who apparently won't even work to better themselves.

 

Tell me, which would you as an employer prefer: Someone who wants and is willing to work with their full efforts, or someone who won't even work hard enough to get themselves out of an apparent "ghetto" when they have all the ability to do so?

[StormHammer81]

@Imperistan

 

Hehehe

 

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA HA HAAA HEEEEEEE

 

Why don't you go ask the King?!?!?!!? :D

 

Regardless my friend, I have proven my case. Let the people decide as they will, the "proof" is complete. Good day !!!

 

Speaking of jobs, I had better get my beauty sleep. Cause tomorrow is Friiiday, I don't get paid yet but by Gawd it's still Friiiday MF !!!

[fraquar]

The Jarl doesn't need to hire more people, because he's already got enough landowners providing for the city already. There are just as many productive farms immediately outside the Windhelm city gates as there are outside Whiterun. Then there is Kynesgrove as well just up the road providing additional support to Windhelm.

 

If we saw evidence of unproductive or abandoned farming or lumber mills I might could understand what you are suggesting - but we don't see that.

 

So exactly what is he supposed to hire these people to do that isn't already being done adequately already - other than fight in the Stormcloak army? Have 4 people picking leeks when you only need 2 - and raising peoples taxes to subsidize their wages?

 

You seem to be forgetting also the law of Supply and Demand. If you have too many people providing too many resources then those resources have little to no value anymore - to the landowners or the Jarl.

Edited July 7, 2012 by fraquar

[sukeban]

LMAO at the last 2 pages of this thread. Actually more like :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

 

And lastly, if Ulfric can create jobs for the war... then he CAN also create some way to help the Dunmer, even if it's resettling them in a proper location. According to him the Nords are ENTITLED to Skyrim and everything there in. Perhaps another reason for the war...

 

The Nords ARE entitled to Skyrim, yo. It is their homeland. Dark Elves have a historical homeland too, it's called Morrowind. If they hate Skryim so terribly much, they are, of course, able to return there.

 

However, based on in-game dialogue with the Dark Elves, the economic opportunities are simply too great in Skyrim to justify returning to Morrowind. Even the biggest Dark Elf chauvinist of them all, Ambarys, admits that he'll return to Morrowind only after he has amassed a great fortune in Skyrim, coming back "in high style" to impress his peers with his wealth. I will repeat, there are no pogroms in Windhelm, the worst treatment that the Dark Elves receive are mean mugs and drunken babble from that one dude who we thankfully get the beat up. Obviously, all bigots are jerks, but neither I nor the Dark Elves are going to die because of some incoherent slurs by inebriated Nords. QED the Dark Elves are not in any mortal peril living in Windhelm; their buildings are semi-rundown, yet many of them also seem to be raking in quite a bit of money in their enterprises? Square that circle for me please.

 

Second, why would Nords want to grant city charters to the Dark Elves? I repeat, the Dark Elves have their own province, whereas the Orcs definitely do not. There are plenty of mainland Morrowind cities to return to, the same cannot be said for the Orcs. Orcs also have historical claims to certain areas of Skyrim, the Dark Elves categorically do not. There is no historical precedent for such a grant. To follow that line of reasoning would mean that the Nords should grant city charters to Khajiits, Argonians, Bretons, and every other Tamrielic race that might request one. No way. I would expect to be laughed out of town should I visit Brazil and demand a city charter.

 

Third, Ulfric is certainly pretty epic fail at actually being a Jarl, favoring military adventures over actual hold governance. That is not a virtue, but neither is it an expectation that any other ruler in Skyrim is held to. Ulfric is both a political leader AND a general. The Imperial side has a discrete general (Tullius) AND a political leader (Elisif). Ulfric must wear both hats simultaneously, and it is clear that his city suffers even whilst his armies succeed. This is guns versus better, yo, and Ulfric has chosen guns.

 

Fourth, check it, I DO in fact think that it is a missed opportunity when the Dark Elven woman (the one who is being harassed when we first enter the city) says that she doesn't support the Stormcloaks because she doesn't think it is her place to do so. That is a perfectly valid/understandable/reasonable response, for sure, BUT it would go A LONG WAY with the local Nords if the Dark Elves actually WOULD pitch in for the Stormcloak cause.

 

I say this because citizens do not automatically have to take the side of their government when it conducts a voluntary, external war of aggression (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.), BUT, to be locked in a war for survival, it would seem to me eminently shady to not outspokenly support the side faced with extermination... if you lived within its territorial boundaries. To behave otherwise, IMO, is pretty well asking to be viewed as an unsympathetic element vis-a-vis the cause of national survival. At best this would would get you marginalized. At worst this would probably get you viewed as... something a bit more sinister.

 

I disagree with all wars of American aggression, but, if the Russians were to come calling on American soil (a la Red Dawn lol), I would think it highly shady if any Americans said that it "wasn't their place to get involved." To be honest, that does sound quite similar to "I kinda want the Russians to win this." In the context of the Skyrim Civil War, this would probably scream to me "ORLY?" in terms of Dark Elven loyalty. And, to be sure, it probably should. I am sure that most Dark Elves WOULD PREFER an Imperial victory over a Stormcloak victory. In this sense, the Stormcloaks are probably correct to distrust the Dark Elves because they are probably not allies in this fight.

 

As another example, I watched Independence Day (best action movie ever?) over the holiday. When faced with an alien invasion promising the extinction of the human race, I would have little time for somebody stating their "neutrality" in the conflict between xenocidal aliens and humans.

Edited July 7, 2012 by sukeban

[robanybody2000]

@sukeban. The Dunmer have nowere to go.

 

"4E 5-6 — Red Mountain erupts; Vvardenfell is destroyed.

 

-In Vivec's absence, the Ministry of Truth becomes unstable. Vuhon creates an Ingenium that uses at first dozens of dying souls, then a small number of living ones to stabilize the rock. The soul of Sul's wife Ilzheven was among them. In a fight to free her, the Ingenium is destroyed and the rock crashes into the city of Vivec with all the energy it originally had. The impact causes Red Mountain to erupt and destroys the entire island of Vvardenfell, as well as causing massive destruction to the rest of the province.

 

-The Argonians invade southern Morrowind after the eruption of Red Mountain and cripple House Telvanni."

 

Besides the destruction of the island, southern Morrowind is sacked by Argonians, so it's prety much wastes and war.

[kevkiev]

The Nords ARE entitled to Skyrim, yo. It is their homeland.

 

There's a few Foresworn who would disagree with you.

 

As an aside, I thought it was kinda interesting when you're in Cidnha mine and the "King in Rags" guy talks about the Nords having banned the Foresworn from worshipping their gods. Nice bit of irony that one.

[sukeban]

There's a few Foresworn who would disagree with you.

 

As an aside, I thought it was kinda interesting when you're in Cidnha mine and the "King in Rags" guy talks about the Nords having banned the Foresworn from worshipping their gods. Nice bit of irony that one.

Might be a nice bit of irony (surely, it is), but don't believe for one moment that the Empire would have it any differently.

 

The Empire wants the silver out of Cidnha mine (and the gold out of Kolskeggr), and will make peace with any and everybody provided that they keep the precious metals flowing south to Cyrodiil. The Empire will make peace with the Nords (aiding and abetting their suppression of the Forsworn) or will make peace with the Forsworn directly. No matter to them, they only want the resources. Highly profits > principal, akin to American policy in the Middle East.

 

However, that is also but one hold within Skyrim, out of nine. It is impossible to claim that Skyim belongs to the Forsworn.

 

@robanybody2000

 

That is truly a tragic tale, however, why don't the Dark Elves demurely ask the Argonians if they will grant them city-states within Greater Black Marsh kekeke. Oh wait... because they held them as slaves for untold centuries before the Red Year. Something about chickens coming home to roost or some such. (I know that's not really fair, as only a minority of the Great Houses actually condoned slavery, but still, in terms of having a "right" to either petition the Argonians or the Nords for lands, the Dark Elves would at least have history on their side if they would but ask the Argonians for a bit of southern Morrowind back; to demand that the Nords supply them with a home is more or less a land-grab justified by bad luck and a terrible morality [slavery]; the Nords owe the Dark Elves absolutely nothing.)

 

I am all for everybody getting along in Windhelm, but I do think that granting a separate city-state to the Dark Elves would be foolish. That would be the Dark Elves capitalizing on Nord "hospitality" for a land-grab, something that no modern nation would ever condone. Refugees from all manner of war-torn lands are expected to settle within existing cities and conform to the prevailing laws of the lands. The only exception that I can think of is that of the Native Americans, but really, they were here to begin with, and, to be honest, should probably be calling the shots for all the rest of us. Unfortunately, something about "might making right" or some such, aka early American jungle rules.

 

The Dark Elves truly are in a pickle though. But, we must all admit, some of that pickle is brought on by their being "aloof, remote, clannish, holier-than-thou, etc." Should the Red Year have happened to the Bretons, for example, I doubt that they would have had any problems finding alternate living accommodations, simply because they a) haven't historically abused anybody else (save the Orcs), and b) are very much easygoing and awesome folks to have around. Having played Morrowind, I know that the Dark Elves totally ARE awesome, but they kind of need to get over themselves if they want people in their adoptive homelands to embrace them. Some have accomplished this (Riften, Winterhold, Whiterun Dark Elves) and some have not (Windhelm). The circumstances might be far from ideal, but c'mon now, they are a guest in a foreign country, they should make the best with what they have. (To be honest, plenty of Dark Elves in Windhelm are doing this, basically everybody apart from Ambarys.)

 

OTOH, Nords should open their eyes a bit further and come to realize that Dark Elves are tons of fun and will knock back infinite mead and beer (and skooma!) with them if only they would invite them over to their table.

Edited July 7, 2012 by sukeban

[MacSuibhne]

 

The Empire wants the silver out of Cidnha mine (and the gold out of Kolskeggr), and will make peace with any and everybody provided that they keep the precious metals flowing south to Cyrodiil. The Empire will make peace with the Nords (aiding and abetting their suppression of the Forsworn) or will make peace with the Forsworn directly. No matter to them, they only want the resources. Highly profits > principal, akin to American policy in the Middle East.

 

 

 

Yes, and it is the Empire itself that commissions Ulfric to deal with the problem. In effect, it is the Empire itself that is the instigator and the engine that drives the Markarth Incident to its inevitable conclusion.

[MacSuibhne]

The case can be made...quite nicely too...that the situation in the Grey Quarter is appropriately an Imperial responsibility, or failing, however you wish to look at it.

 

The Dunmer have been in Skyrim for 150 years. If the Empire has suzerainty over Skyrim...as it claims and as an impending Civil War to determine the legitimacy of that claim will decide...then it is ultimately the Empire's responsibility to look after its citizens...all its citizens.

 

Nothing was done about the Grey Quarter by Torygg--the vassal King, sworn to uphold Imperial law--and nothing will be done by Brunwuff when...if..the Empire wins.