StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) @Freelancer If it were done through Moot (Moat ?) I'd be all up for it... Challenging a kid to a combat to the death and "bringing a gun to a knife fight" without support from any of the Jarls or any eyewitnesses... Well, I think no one can honestly say it doesn't look at least a bit shady...EDIT: actually, I'm not so sure about this point... unfortunately I've finished the whole Civil War thingie only twice and both times as imperial, so maybe Ulfric or someone provides reasons for challenging a king which borderlines on assassination to the eyes of uninformed observer such as myself. I've got your back on this one. If the challenge was legit with no strings attached, then Ulfric wouldn't have needed to flee, especially setting someone up ahead of time to reserve a gate open for him to flee through. That more than anything else proves it was a shady, d*ck move on his part. Furthermore, when Hammerfell declared independence, it was over a legitimate conflict of interests with the Empire. Skyrim is different. The land as a whole isn't standing up and declaring independence. Therefore, the Empire has every right to fight to keep Skyrim a part of it, should it choose to do so and it has. If Torygg or Elisif had decided to declare independence and there was no murder committed by Ulfric, I would be a Stormcloak today or at very least be fighting for Skyrim and probably still fighting against Ulfric for some reason or another. Ulfric got his shot, he blew it. Now my Orc and Imperial friends are going to take a few shots at him :D Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Ulfric fled because no one in Solitude was going to honor the legitimacy of the duel, not because it wasn't legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Nope, I agree with you on many things but this is not one of them. Ulfric fled because it was unlawful, an arrangement that was hastily agreed to. Ulfric set Torygg up to take the fall for his cause. Ulfric killed him because HE wanted to be High King when the dust settles. And there ain't no other reason for it than that. What HONOR is there in even the thought of challenging some kid to a duel where he has no chance whatsoever of winning? That's NOT honor. That's called a Black Op. An honest man has nothing to hide and no reason to run. Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) An honest man dies just the same as a guilty man if he doesn't defend himself. Just like General Tullius wanting to execute him without a fair trial - how should we expect he'd ever get one in Solitude? He was dead man walking in Solitude whether he was innocent or guilty - thats a no-brainer. s***, they beheaded the guy who just opened the gate - which tells us Ulfric was already a condemned man. Edited July 8, 2012 by fraquar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Nope, I agree with you on many things but this is not one of them. Ulfric fled because it unlawful. An honest man has nothing to hide and no reason to run. So you're saying that it would have been smart for Ulfric to stay when he knew and we all knew that he would have been executed (probably on the spot) for what he did? Again, no one in Solitude was going to honor the legitimacy the duel. Few in Solitude care about tradition in the way that those of the Stormcloak line of thinking would. And even if more did, Elisif still would have had him executed. To criticize Ulfric for not being stupid enough to stick around in a city that was going to be gearing up to kill him (regardless of the legitimacy of what he did) is like criticizing France for not standing up to Germany in a direct fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) No, completely different. Ok so If I go rob a bank because you know... they've wronged me, I'm loosing my home and I go in there and go all New Vegas on em, shoot and kill mmm 5 - 10 people and a police officer to get my money back, then that's fair too. Cause the bank stole my money and they're not doing enough to save their customers homes and save their customers lives, so I need to go handle it meself. I'll also need you or someone else to drive the getaway for me. Sound good? Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) @fraquar Little Rogvir's beheading was just and fair and it was also a time of war. He knew what he was doing. Because of him opening that gate, THOUSANDS more lives are now to be lost because Ulfric was allowed to escape the city after committing murder on Torygg. Rogvir let a murderer, terrorist and thug escape justice. How's the Empire to know he hadn't been doing more favors for Ulfric all along? Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 AND Furthermore, if that duel HAD been made public beforehand and under Nord tradition, HAD been approved by the Jarls, there would have been no need for the Empire to have done anything. It's all about intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraquar Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 You might want to see just how many innocent people we condemn in the U.S. - some with length jail sentences others put to death before suggesting that Ulfric had nothing to fear if he was innocent. Again, General Tullius tells us everything we need to know about the situation at Helgen. No trial, just a butcher block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) No I agree with you about the US having problems, hehehe you win that one. However, Tullius was executing TERRORISTS. When they engaged in acts of Terrorism against the Empire and it's citizens, they forfeited their rights as Imperial citizens. US does the same thing, like when we killed Bin Laden and I think that was Justified. Especially in a time of war. Being in a time of war has an effect on the justice system. Later! Edited July 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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