Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[kibblesticks]

But in every one of these discussions there's someone who is going to bombard you with accusations that Ulfric is a racist despite there being no...zero...indication that he actively supports any law, statute, writ or even opinion the intent of which is to persecute, harass badger or purposefully demean any race. And some meaningful evidence that it's simply a non-issue with him. All the rest of the nearly hysterical vilification--numerous variations on "arrogant" "scumbag", 'pr*ck" etc.--is simply people venting their "feelings".

 

I don't think Jarl Ulfric is racist as such. He just doesn't recognize the value in other races and cultures. "Ulfric wants Skyrim for the Nords" is an actual quote by a nord in the game in a conversation with a dark elf as to why nothing is being done to help the dark elf slum dwellers in Windhelm. It's not racism as such, it's just disregard for other races. Certainly Ulfric, and those associated with his regime, don't show the level of tolerance that the Imperials do.

 

There will be someone who tells you that supporting the Empire is in the best interests of Skyrim nevermind that the Empire entered into a demeaning and subservient treaty with the Thalmor--who consider Men to be not much better than beasts (that's in the Lore), and who would like nothing better that to wipe all races except the Altmer off the face of Tamriel (also in the Lore, IIRC).

 

So you're perhaps suggesting the Empire should have continued to fight and been wiped out, rather than reach a compromise which gives the provinces breathing room to regroup and prepare to fight back?

 

People pile onto the notion that those attitudes don't matter and would like nothing better than to make everyone forget that there are Thalmor soldiers and "political officers" patrolling Skyrim and arresting, torturing, and beheading citizens with no pretense of a trial or even Imperial justice (such as it is). Your own character was probably a victim of one of those Imperially sanctioned, Thalmor sweeps.

 

Erm no, I'm pretty sure your character's capture was General Tulius' doing through and through. The Thalmor actually want the civil war to continue, as evidenced by the Thalmor dossiers.

 

Again asking people to pretend that the Thalmor is not also regrouping and regaining its strength...with the added advantage of spies and agents and provocateurs inside Skyrim compiling data about the strength, morale and disposition of Imperial troops. Learning the lay of the land...and slowly, slowly tightening their control of civic and legal affairs.

 

Have to disagree again I'm afraid. The Thalmor had the upper hand in the Great War. They were driven out of Cyrodiil true enough, but with Hammerfell under seige, and Elsewyr and Valenwood ready to attack in the South, the Empire couldn't have held out for long. The Dominion had even sacked the Imperial capital, though it was retaken. The Thalmor's first attack had as much to do with the Empire not being prepared as it did with strength of arms. It is suggested that the Thalmor already had many spies in place within the Empire. Now the Empire have the chance to place their own spies and build their own forces up.

 

Sometimes...esp. in a video game where you can always reload...it really is "better to die on your feet than live on your knees". If nothing else it helps people get used to the idea.

If this were RL, I would hope and wish that I had the personal courage to resist oppression and tyranny and not take the easy, safe way out.

 

Often times one nation will attack a stronger neighbour without warning and be victorious initially. But then the stronger nation gets it's feet and strikes back. It's a case of losing the battle to win the war. You're saying you'd prefer that all the men (as apposed to mer) in Tamriel were butchered or totured in a crushing Aldmeri victory, rather than suffering a few decades of minor subjugation in the pursuit of removing the Aldmeri threat. Pride is all well and good, but dead is dead.

 

I would agree though, that it's nice a major video game is making people think about these issues when they might not have before.

 

Sorry for the long post...

 

Treebeard: "You must understand, young Hobbit, it takes a long time to say anything in Old Entish. And we never say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say."

[AstralFire]

You know what's bloody irritating?

 

I haven't insulted anyone, I haven't just hurled around that Ulfric's a racist baselessly (I was careful to avoid invoking the situation in Windhelm overmuch, I did bring up Markarth, but not in a particularly emotional manner), I was quite civil in every post I made but this fact is ignored and run over in favor of a snide tone of voice in the replies to me, and then an accusation that the people here against the Stormcloaks are ragingly delusional. Emotional. Whatever. Which comes paired with assertions that I should ignore in-game sources of information because they have reason to be biased (this is fair) without any counterevidence to suggest that they are wrong or that their writer is, in fact, delusional (this is not fair). Something being suspect or circumstantial is not equivalent to it being irrelevant.

 

C'mon, guys. You want respect, you have to give it. I'm not really interested in participating in this discussion further until that's done. Those of you arguing against me were not as blatantly rude as some of the other pro-Imperials in this thread, but I don't appreciate having my views dismissed summarily when I haven't done anything that, supposedly, Imperial supporters seem to always do. Go through all of my posts here, and if you can find something I said based on 'feelings' rather than what we have in-game evidence of, if you can find me accusing Ulfric of being a racist, if you can find me using any insults to refer to him worse than "impatient" or "possibly powerlusting" or if you can find me adopting a snide tone with anyone here.

 

Additionally, dismissing the Thalmor dossier on the grounds of "we don't see their dossier on Tullius, Elisif, etc." is not a particularly strong argument. Stepping back a minute, I think there's a fair argument to be made that Skyrim would be able to hold out in a direct invasion, but AFAIK you're relying on inference and assumptions to make it. (Skyrim looks down on casters more than the other provinces and doesn't have the technological edge that's commonly associated to Hammerfell. How does that play in? It's supposedly a very mountainous country which is cited in its favor, but you move through a lot of lowlands and there aren't major chokepoints around most of the major holds, etc.) I don't mind that. I think it's a pretty cogent point, but I don't think it's fair to draw the assumption that Skyrim would be so difficult to invade when there's no more unshakable in-game proof to that end than there is to dismiss the dossier on the basis of possible other dossiers we don't see.

 

The writers of the game present to us certain information for a reason, and I think it's completely reasonable to take note of the fact that other controversial matters (the gods in particular, the racial situation in Windhelm, the Great War itself) tend to have multiple unreliable narrators arguing from opposite points. There is (to my knowledge, and I'm new to Skyrim, so I could be wrong) no direct answer for the dossier and the book on Markarth, meaning that the only concrete criticism that can be levied at them is that there is bias - not that they have no basis in truth.

Edited June 3, 2012 by AstralFire

[MacSuibhne]

You simply can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

 

Either the Empire surrendered to the Dominion or they came to a mutual understanding...both tired and weakened...as the Lore suggests. There was no reason...other than surrender...to abrogate their sovereignty and allow the Thalmor what amounts to surzainity, as well as practical martial and judiciary control.

 

If the Empire did not surrender then the terms of the WGC were craven at best and need to be repudiated. That's what Ulfric is all about.

 

If the Empire did, indeed, surrender to the AD, then it is time to throw off the yoke. To at least prepare the way, get people thinking along those lines. That the Empire is willing to suppress any such notions among the people of Skyrim suggests that either way, the Empire has no incentive...despite the bravado...to confront a power it effectively did indeed surrender to. Now or ever.

 

And look again... in Helgen. There may be Imperial "lackeys" in attendance but the executions are being conducted, and driven, by a Thalmor Justicar.

[kibblesticks]

You simply can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

 

Either the Empire surrendered to the Dominion or they came to a mutual understanding...both tired and weakened...as the Lore suggests. There was no reason...other than surrender...to abrogate their sovereignty and allow the Thalmor what amounts to surzainity, as well as practical martial and judiciary control.

 

Yes, both were tired and weakened and neither could be assured of victory. Other than pride for pride's sake, why does that make agreeing to the WGC a bad idea? Yes the Thalmor can take and torture a limited number of their enemies, but the death toll would have been far worse if the empire and the dominion had continued trading blows, and the thalmor could have potentially won out. Now the two sides are on more of an even footing. The empire now has a chance to make the other provinces aware of the dangers of the thalmor and prepare for a war that they weren't ready to fight before. If the war had gone on, countless lives would have been lost, men, women and children. I can't see how that's a good thing other than to satisfy a warrior's need for a "honourable death".

 

If the Empire did not surrender then the terms of the WGC were craven at best and need to be repudiated. That's what Ulfric is all about.

Erm, not really sure what you mean?You mean the terms on the Imperial's side were cowardly and Ulfric wants to set down stronger terms? I'm pretty sure Ulfric just wants an independent Skyrim, free from any rule or alliance but their own... which is great until the Dominion comes a knockin'

 

If the Empire did, indeed, surrender to the AD, then it is time to throw off the yoke. To at least prepare the way, get people thinking along those lines. That the Empire is willing to suppress any such notions among the people of Skyrim suggests that either way, the Empire has no incentive...despite the bravado...to confront a power it effectively did indeed surrender to. Now or ever.

 

Lets not forget, the men who rule the Empire are undoubtedly some of the greatest minds in Tamriel. You don't get to be head of the Empire by being an idiot. So do you not think it's feasible the Empire has alternate plans, and knows that now is not the right time to fight back? And that a rebellion to the North will just weaken their hold on Tamriel further?

 

You seem to be hell bent on a death or glory mission that would likely bring about the destruction of all the non-mer races of Tamriel. I have hope that Tamriel can unite and fight back in the most effective and prepared way possible. You seem to think a single province with divided leadership can take on a force that already swept across the entire south of the continent, obliterating resistance in Valenwood and Cyrodiil whilst simultaneously laying seige to Hammerfell. You really think Ulfric and his small bunch of revolutionaries can stand up to the might of the Dominion?

 

And look again... in Helgen. There may be Imperial "lackeys" in attendance but the executions are being conducted, and driven, by a Thalmor Justicar.

You kinda ignored the bit about the Thalmor wanting the civil war to continue and the dossier evidence to support that? Why would the Thalmor want two of their rivals to stop fighting each other? The justicars presence shows, if anything, that the empire isn't completely under Thalmor control as you suggest, because if they were the Thalmor would have found a way to release Ulfric. In their dossiers they specifically mention how fortuitous the intervention of the dragon was for their agenda.

 

Edit: Also, read AstralFire's comment. You might want to specify before throwing around your insights about other people's opinions. You basically labelled every person who doesn't agree with you as an emotional reactionary. Not really the way to hold a civilised debate.

[AstralFire]

I've done Helgen several times in the last few days due to un/reinstall issues. I've noted the Thalmor presence, but they're not commanding anything.

[MacSuibhne]

Two points...just for the record...

 

First, I'm not now, nor have I been, pointing the finger at anyone specifically...not even for their tone of voice.

 

Second, I'm not whining...

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[trukittn]

... one of the things (maybe actually the main thing) that makes me hesitant to join the stormcloaks is the relationship my char built with Elisif and her court by doing a bunch of favours for them and, as a result, kinda bonding with them. Not a ton of stuff I guess, but considering there isn't much character development in this game, that little goes a long way. Elisif seems inexperienced, but a pretty decent person at heart.

 

I agree on Elisif. She seems like a decent lady, if a little weak-willed for her position. I personally think Falk would make a fine Jarl, so I'm glad she's got him to advise her. As for your concerns with Elisif's fate, I dunno if you knew it or not but she doesn't get deposed or killed if the Stormcloaks win. She keeps her throne and Ulfric returns to Windhelm.

 

OP: If you do succeed in avoiding the temptation of picking a side as long as you can, and make the resolution of the war the last thing you do, you could always simply make a save before you choose and then return to it to see the other side. Or even try them both simultaneously. Using the console to name your saves would help keep them organized. I have done this with the DB, holding off on Innocence Lost till the arse end of my last playthrough because I can't seem to justify joining them 'for reals'. But... I still haven't convinced myself to actually go back and join them yet.

 

Anyways, I'm curious what you will think once you've seen both sides for yourself. What will you decide is the truth out of what you discover?

[kaindjinn]

If you do succeed in avoiding the temptation of picking a side as long as you can, and make the resolution of the war the last thing you do, you could always simply make a save before you choose and then return to it to see the other side. Or even try them both simultaneously.

The farthest I've gone is standing before both Tulius and Ulfric, but both times I've turned around and done other things. That's not a bad idea...

 

P.S. AstralFire, I've read every post you've written. They're all very thorough and well-written. :)

[kevkiev]

.,...As for your concerns with Elisif's fate, I dunno if you knew it or not but she doesn't get deposed or killed if the Stormcloaks win. She keeps her throne and Ulfric returns to Windhelm.

 

OP: If you do succeed in avoiding the temptation of picking a side as long as you can, and make the resolution of the war the last thing you do, you could always simply make a save before you choose and then return to it to see the other side. Or even try them both simultaneously. Using the console to name your saves would help keep them organized. I have done this with the DB, holding off on Innocence Lost till the arse end of my last playthrough because I can't seem to justify joining them 'for reals'. But... I still haven't convinced myself to actually go back and join them yet.

 

Anyways, I'm curious what you will think once you've seen both sides for yourself. What will you decide is the truth out of what you discover?

 

Hey, thanks for the tip, I didn't know that about Elisif and her throne. I also didn't know you could name saves via console - thanks again. That's not a bad idea at all.

[imperistan]

So you're perhaps suggesting the Empire should have continued to fight and been wiped out, rather than reach a compromise which gives the provinces breathing room to regroup and prepare to fight back?

 

 

T_T This falsehood again? Guess its time to pull my response to this right out of the first page of this topic:

 

Nope. The Dominion couldn't have destroyed the Empire after the War of the Red Ring. If they couldn't waltz over Hammerfel, one province, in the 5 years they spent fighting them, they weren't going to waltz over the rest of the Empire. There might not have been the ability to invade the Dominion at the time, but there was no way the Empire was going to lose against the Dominion. Hell, after the War of the Red Ring, the Empire could have easily demanded the surrender of the Dominion, or at the least a non-negotiable, non-conditioned truce. The Empire had more than enough resources to draw on to both support Hammerfel and defend other borders. (without committing exhausted troops mind you)

 

And no, you can't just take the time (or rather, this much time) to recover with the Dominion, and certainly not in the way that they did. You're giving the Dominion back their advantage by waiting things out with them and giving them free reign to undermine your entire Empire. Indecisiveness hesitation, and appeasement will not win you the war against the Dominion.

 

No, the Empire gave up because the Empire only cares about Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was the ONLY province during that war that was suffering heavily that the Empire actually cared about. Hammerfel was suffering just as bad as Cyrodiil was, but the Emperor ordered it abandoned in an attempt to take back the Imperial City. Did you catch that? The Emperor, ordered Hammerfel abandoned, to save Cyrodiil. And then he decides to give the Dominion what it wanted, purely because Cyrodiil was in bad shape, but according to the Empire's leadership, they were "sparing" the rest of the Empire.

 

But lets look at the facts here. Cyrodiil was in bad shape. So was Hammerfel. At the wars conclusion, Cyrodiil was completely empty of Dominion forces and had enough troops to at least defend borders. Hammerfel was still fighting the Dominion. Skyrim and High Rock were comfortable up in the North, never seeing the war in any shape or form. Morrowind was already more or less ravaged and destroyed even before the war, and it wouldn't have been important to base any decision on sparing it from a fight. (as there's nothing there to defend really)

 

So, that's one province that's actually seeing the war, and is going to see it regardless of whether or not the war ends. Two provinces wrecked (one destroyed before the war, one destroyed during), with one completely void of the force that wrecked it but still with the capacity to defend its own borders, the other totally unimportant to anything. And two provinces that haven't seen any damage and can totally support everyone else if managed correctly.

 

So what was the Emperor sparing exactly? Only Cyrodiil from the utter "horror" of having another enemy soldier step foot in it, even though the Dominion would have been stupid to even order of their own to do so at that point. Any man with the knowledge of what was going on in Tamriel at the time and a fairly decent intelligence would have been able to see that. And its not like you could say it was out of fear of some magical Deus X Machina that the Dominion was holding back, because if the Dominion had that why would they have stopped fighting? If they could take the Empire down after the War of the Red Ring, they would have. They had zero reason not to if they had such an ability. But they didn't have such an ability, which is the only reason the Dominion even gave the Empire's truce a bother. (also didn't help that the Empire was offering everything they demanded of the Empire in the first place). The fact that they couldn't take Hammerfel after 5 years proves that even further, as well as the fact that they couldn't have taken on the rest of the Empire in that time either.

 

Long story short, you're buying into total political BS made up to cover the Emperor's selfish desire to spare Cyrodiil (which didn't have to and wouldn't have seen another minute of the war anyway) at the expense of everyone else in the Empire, and only making things worse by supporting their continued "peace" with the Dominion.

 

 

Have to disagree again I'm afraid. The Thalmor had the upper hand in the Great War. They were driven out of Cyrodiil true enough, but with Hammerfell under seige, and Elsewyr and Valenwood ready to attack in the South, the Empire couldn't have held out for long. The Dominion had even sacked the Imperial capital, though it was retaken. The Thalmor's first attack had as much to do with the Empire not being prepared as it did with strength of arms. It is suggested that the Thalmor already had many spies in place within the Empire. Now the Empire have the chance to place their own spies and build their own forces up.

 

Wrong. The Dominion couldn't win in Hammerfel, Valenwood's forces were already a part of the Dominion's army, and Elsweyr never (and in all liklihood will never) participated in the Dominion's war. (They're only client states. They aren't required to fight for the Dominion and nothing about their actions shows they're willing to go to war)

 

Hammerfel is the ultimate truth here. The Dominion's real and first goal was Hammerfel, and always was. And they couldn't take it in the 5 years they spent on it. And if they had to split their forces between Hammerfel and the rest of the Empire? They couldn't have done anything more to the Empire other than what they'd end up doing in Hammerfel (as they already had a foothold there).

 

Often times one nation will attack a stronger neighbour without warning and be victorious initially. But then the stronger nation gets it's feet and strikes back. It's a case of losing the battle to win the war

 

Except that doesn't apply. We're talking about standing by and letting an oppressive force have free reign on your country while you simultaneously put zero effort and thwarting them. If the Empire wanted to use the WGC as a way to just thwart the Dominion, they wouldn't have waited 30+ years to put those plans into motion. As I said above, you can't win against the Dominion by waiting, and even if you're going to wait, you better put that time to good use. And the Empire has done no such thing. There is literally zero indication of the Empire's willingless to fight the Dominion politically or militarily. That the Dominion could insert themselves into a meeting between the Stormcloaks and the Empire (when they had no legitimate right to be there) shows that the Empire has no backside in dealing with the Dominion. And it isn't like this is 6 months after the Concordat, when making sure that it will stick was tantamount. This is 30 years after the fact. The Empire has every chance to fight the Dominion, but it does nothing.

 

I think it's a pretty cogent point, but I don't think it's fair to draw the assumption that Skyrim would be so difficult to invade when there's no more unshakable in-game proof to that end than there is to dismiss the dossier on the basis of possible other dossiers we don't see.

 

Problem is is that Skyrim is surrounded by mountains (and further surrounded by 3 provinces that would have to be invaded first) and its entire northern coast goes out to sea. Both routes of invasion would be massively costly to the Dominion to maintain and ultimately prove futile as Skyrim would be able to defend against any attack. And you must remember, the Dominion's main weapon is Cloak and Dagger. If their target knows they're coming (or if they simply can't do anything to subjugate and/or undermine their target), they'll lose the fight.

 

This is proof derived from a map of Tamriel and common knowledge of how the Dominion had any success in the Great War.

 

Lets not forget, the men who rule the Empire are undoubtedly some of the greatest minds in Tamriel.

 

http://rlv.zcache.co.uk/pfftch_laughing_rage_face_comic_meme_poster-rb857504fcdd34b2788cb22824f774204_jih_400.jpg?bg=0xffffff

 

Anyone who could accept the WGC after the War of the Red Ring cannot be legitimately called one of the "greatest minds in Tamriel".

 

You kinda ignored the bit about the Thalmor wanting the civil war to continue and the dossier evidence to support that? Why would the Thalmor want two of their rivals to stop fighting each other? The justicars presence shows, if anything, that the empire isn't completely under Thalmor control as you suggest, because if they were the Thalmor would have found a way to release Ulfric.

 

This only proves the tactical smarts (or outright stubborn impatience) of General Tullius. The fact that the Thalmor were there at all proves how far their injection into the affairs of the Empire goes. In truth they have no reason to be there even under the WGC.