Who are the "Good Guys" in this war?

[Michio2013]

I personally go for the empire in the civil war, although I was initially a stormcloak man. I went stormcloak initially because, even though my character doesn't worship talos, he still fights for people's freedom to do so. However, at the civil war conclusion, I realized that the stormcloaks actually made it worse by alienating allies that were crucial, like the empire and saw that they were, for the most part, racist. Plus, the oath to make Ulfric high king didn't really go over well with me since that wasn't the cause I was fighting for. Next play through, I tried to go for the empire, and I saw that the imperials were OPENLY against the worship of talos, a war was coming that would soon either end the empire or end the dominion, and by extension, the banning of talos worship. Thus, my character looked for the long run: fight for the imperials TODAY, rescue talos worship for TOMORROW.

[MacSuibhne]

We can speculate, and more to the point, fantasize till the cows come home but the choices are really stark if you simply look at what we do, for a fact, know.

 

The WGC is thirty years in the past. The Empire has not gotten stronger, it has gotten weaker. More importantly its morale is ebbing as well.

 

On the other hand, in that time the AD has, indeed, gotten stronger. Strong enough and confidant enough to spare soldiers and Justicars and others to patrol Skyrim and meddle in Imperial affairs in Skyrim. They maintain what is tantamount to a shadow government in Skyrim...complete with their own system of justice as well as prisons and torture chambers (right in the Thalmor Embassy in fact). A system of justice that obviously trumps Imperial justice.

 

The Stormcloaks want a free Skyrim and want the Thalmor interference and religious persecution to stop.

 

The Thalmor want to control and oppress Skyrim and the Empire is happy (or at least willing) to abet them in this endeavour.

 

Thirty years have gone by since the de facto surrender of sovereignty by the Empire.

 

The Stormcloak's position is quite clearly "when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

 

On the Imperial side, for both players and NPC's, "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

 

And it is really this second section that assumes the greatest importance. Because, as the Signers knew, people get used to being oppressed. They forget their Traditions and their gods (as the Thalmor obviously intend)...and in the process lose themselves.

 

People will always choose the devil they know rather than the one...or the future...they don't know. So it is hard to conceive that another thirty years will be enough...or another three hundred, for that matter.

 

For me (and I believe for Ulfric as well), that's as stark as it gets.

 

For others, the short term may be all that matters--preserving transient comforts and prerogatives..

 

But every form of refuge has a price.

 

Coming full circle, if you are willing to listen to off hand comments by NPC'c who have an obvious bias or a limited perspective, you can find people who will tell you exactly what you want to hear....no matter which side you're favouring.

 

But it is gossip, pure and simple. It is rumourmongering and fish wives prattling in the marketplace. It may give you a small peek into the limited vistas of one life but it does not...ever...tell the whole story.

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[MacSuibhne]

With regard to the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric...and just for the sake of comity...let's stipulate for the moment that it is all true, with no shading or self-congratulatory "spin" on the part of the Thalmor.

 

So what?! Not only does it go back to my point in the previous post about points of view from biased NPC's but the document clearly states that Ulfric is "uncooperative". If the dossier makes anything clear it is that--Ulfric is "uncooperative."

 

This is important because no matter how you define the term, the Empire and all its representatives--from the Emperor to Tullius to Torygg--are cooperative...agents of Thalmor policy.

 

The Empire has aided and abetted the Thalmor in the persecution of worshippers of Talos (even if only passively). The Empire has allowed armed forces of a foreign power to arrest and torture citizens of Skyrim. [And if you come across a Thalmor patrol and even think to question their authority or find out what the poor sod they have in tow has done...if don't "move along" sprightly enough...they'll attack you, forcing you to kill them. At which point you get a bounty.] The Empire has allowed the Thalmor to establish what amounts to a shadow government in Skyrim. In all of this, the Empire has effectively ceded sovereignty of Skyrim to the Thalmor.

 

The Empire are "brokers", "operatives", "proxies", "deputies", "surrogates" and representatives for Thalmor policy.

 

And all those words are Thesaurus based synonyms for "agent." (the definition for which is: "A representative who acts on behalf of other persons or organizations.")

 

The Empire is cooperative. Ulfric is not.

 

It doesn't matter if we don't have a dossier on Tullius or Torygg, et al. "By their actions shall ye know them."

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[kaindjinn]

Could someone post that entire dossier on Ulfric? Rather than rely on speculation I'd like to see the text myself, especially since I have no idea when or where I'll see it.

[MacSuibhne]

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thalmor-dossier-ulfric-stormcloak

 

Thought this was interesting as well....

 

A Thalmor Justicar order for your death. Does Elisif know about this?

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[kibblesticks]

imperistan;

Long story short, you're buying into total political BS made up to cover the Emperor's selfish desire to spare Cyrodiil (which didn't have to and wouldn't have seen another minute of the war anyway) at the expense of everyone else in the Empire, and only making things worse by supporting their continued "peace" with the Dominion.

 

You're entire thesis makes perfect sense if this were the case and I would totally agree. However, I refuse to believe the Empire were in a strong position when the Great War ended, as there would be no reason to allow an army bent on the destruction of all non-mer races to gain more influence. The rulers of the Empire would only have agreed to the WGC if A: they were completely stupid (which I don't believe they were) or B: they geniunely believed that they were saving lives because long-term victory over the Thalmor was unlikely. You do make some very compelling points about the Empire's motives in all this, but really it comes down to who has the best chance of defeating the Dominion, and I still believe the Empire have the intention of fighting back at some point. I don't need evidence for this, anyone in the know could see that having a mer-purist regime in charge would be a bad idea, and so I have to assume the Empire has motivations towards removing the threat. I also assume that all their best minds (military, economic and diplomatic) would have been consulted before the signing of the WGC. What experts did Ulfric consult before shouting the High king to death and plunging Skyrim into a bloody civil war?

 

I'm not saying the Empire has all the answers, but then who does? I'm saying that the Stormcloaks don't even have the general support of their own people, so what hope do they have of driving back the dominion without the Imperial's aid?

 

@MacSuibhne,

Do you know if that Thalmor execution order has game conditions? I've never seen it so it may only appear if you break into the embassy or kill a Thalmor patrol or something.

 

As for the Ulfric thing, the dossier definately hints at him being an assest rather than a hinderance to the Thalmor. As for him actively resisting... I really don't think it suggests that at all.

After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.

it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Note "direct contact".

Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant.

i.e. He's doing what we want, so leave him to it.

 

And now for a VERY important part:

obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.

An imperial victory would harm the Thalmor's position in Skyrim. Why would they say that unless they know the Imperial's ability to resist them is greater than the Stormcloaks. If the Imperials are

"brokers", "operatives", "proxies", "deputies", "surrogates" and representatives for Thalmor policy

as you claim, and the Stormcloaks were such a big threat to the Thalmor, then an Imperial victory would surely be encouraged.

[MacSuibhne]

Ulfric was "assigned" to a "handler" as an "asset". But just because the Thalmor think it is true doesn't make it so. The Germans thought Arthur Owens was their man too. Or Juan Pujol Garcia...who received medals from the Geermans but was a dedicated double agent for the British and Americans. I'm not suggesting or making a comparison...just pointing out that in all likelihood the Germans were very sure of "their" men as well.

 

For that reason alone, the issue is a dead letter. I see nothing particularly damning, esp. considering the source.

 

That said, it would be nice if people stopped the quibbling and the semantic misdirection and just deal with the issues raised by Imperial appeasement and acquiescence to Thalmor demands and incursions.

 

If you're gonna condemn a man with no more proof than the dossier but let the Empire off the hook, something is very "rotten in Denmark.'

 

Let Ulfric's action speak for themselves. Stop taking the word of Machiavellian manipulators, malcontents and people whose jobs, sinecures and security rests with being faithful to the status quo--an entrenched and corrupt bureaucracy so inextricably entangled with the Thalmor that they have no incentive to change.

 

And let the Empire's actions speak for themselves.

 

30 years worth...

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne

[kevkiev]

... Do you know if that Thalmor execution order has game conditions? I've never seen it so it may only appear if you break into the embassy or kill a Thalmor patrol or something...

 

I'd be interested in knowing this too. Very early on my first playthrough I got ambushed by a Thalmor trio and found that note - couldn't figure it out b/c I was sure I hadn't po'd anyone (at that point). From what I recall, that was actually my very first sighting of any Thalmor - I assumed they were all like that and couldn't figure out why, awhile later, a nearby Imperial patrol attacked me after I started/finished a fight with another Thalmor trio (who, it turned out, were just the normal type of Thalmor prix). Ended up being attacked maybe 3 or 4 more times by other Thalmor executioner-types, but by then I'd attacked the Embassy and the Thalmor prison as part of the related quests so it made sense.

 

In my current game, I was again first ambushed by the Thalmor before I'd done anything to them. (Edit: um, wait a minute, in my current game it actually might have been after I had to fight through a group of them in the Ratway to get Esbern back to Riverwood.)

 

The only thing I can think of is maybe the act of simply talking to the old Gray-mane woman about her son? (Though I did that in each case very sneakily.)

Edited June 4, 2012 by kevkiev

[MacSuibhne]

As I mentioned above, I have run across more than a couple of Thalmor patrols (and I usually fast travel everywhere)

 

Yesterday I was on a mission (single-minded as I am) and ran across a Thalmor patrol leading some poor sod to his doom.

 

Not wanting any trouble I tried to move past them. I did not have any weapons drawn, I simply stopped for a second to see if there was a dialog window for the prisoner.

 

The Thalmor obviously didn't want me talking to him (what were they afraid of?) and drew down on me...So the fight was on.

 

When I arrived in Solitude, I was arrested.

 

Tell me again who controls Solitude? Elisif? The Imperials? Or the Thalmor?

 

I went back to a previous save.

[MacSuibhne]

And now for a VERY important part:

obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.

An imperial victory would harm the Thalmor's position in Skyrim. Why would they say that unless they know the Imperial's ability to resist them is greater than the Stormcloaks. If the Imperials are

"brokers", "operatives", "proxies", "deputies", "surrogates" and representatives for Thalmor policy

as you claim, and the Stormcloaks were such a big threat to the Thalmor, then an Imperial victory would surely be encouraged.

 

You miss the whole point...and an obvious one it is, too...of the dossier. The Thalmor are, without question, playing a very dangerous game here. But that kind of Machiavellian treachery is part of their racial make up. The dossier makes it clear that it is not in their interests to have either side in the ascendant. Not because the Empire has a better chance to defeat them...or the Stormcloaks either...but simply because turmoil uses up resources...men, supplies and morale.

 

There is no disputing that the Stormcloak Rebellion is divisive but so is thirty years of waiting for a government you support (with taxes and so forth) and place your hope in, to do something (even if it's wrong) so that you can stop crawling on your belly.

 

If it weren't, Ulfric wouldn't have any followers, at all.

 

I suspect either side could, if the distractions were removed, muster sufficient force to confront and maybe even defeat the Thalmor. But even if the Empire wins the civil war...well, it's still the Empire...old, corrupt (as its actions prove), reluctant to risk anything, (much less all) and inclined to make peace treaties that are more favourable to the enemy (and entrenched Imperial bureaucrats) than the people--win or lose.

Edited June 4, 2012 by MacSuibhne