Merging Mods - Retextures that Don't Overwrite .esp

[vicki08]

Good afternoon, everyone!

In an effort to reduce my plug-in count, I am planning out merges for my upcoming 1st modded playthrough (still new to using mods in general, and completely inexperienced using them for Fallout). While working through my chosen armor mods, I found that I have some mods that include the .esp file, and then I have separate retexture/recolor mods, which only contain non-.esp files (.dds, .nif, etc). I will be using the Merge Plugins tool to create the merges, and I think it only picks up the .esm and .esp files that are loaded (please correct me, if I am wrong about this), which would mean the retexture cannot be packaged into the merge. If that's correct, I need to understand if the main mod file can be included.

For example, I have the 'Wanderer's Trench Coat' mod and the 'Wanderer's Trench Coat Mended and Modified Paint Options (Minuteman and BoS)' mod. The 1st mod contains the .esp file, and the 2nd mod specifically states that it only overwrites the materials, textures, etc, which is why I still need the main file. I looked through the files included in the retexture mod, and I am curious: if none of those files specifically overwrite the .esp file, can the original mod be included in a merge and still be revised by the retexture mod?

 

I suppose another question would be: what happens to the .esp file, once NMM installs it? Are the pieces of the file broken out to their correct subfolders in the game's Data folder: meshes, textures, materials, etc? If that is the case, then the retexture would probably be fine, if the main file is part of a merge, correct?

 

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

 

 

Victoria

 

[WastelandAssassin]

not sure what you mean by the different pieces of the plugin (esp file) once NMM installs it . all the plugin contains is information the game can read , like item stats or a link to which models to load when an item is equipped

so what happens when you install a mod is that the files from the mod are extracted to the folder you've designated . when you activate the mod , the plugin is also added into the load order plugin , which the game reads when you run it through the mod manager , thus loading these plugins (and the information contained within them) into the game

 

since you are discussing merging plugins , there is nothing to do with any mods that don't contain plugins . of course these also don't contribute to the plugin limit , so with these you are only really limited to your hard drive space (and also what the game can also handle , if you try loading ultra HD textures etc) . since the plugin created when merging plugins still contains all the information from the original plugins (including the same paths for meshes textures etc) , and a retexture simply replaces these files from the original , there should be no issue with installing such mods even when merging the original mod's plugins

 

this could be just me not understanding your question , so if I have misunderstood something feel free to ask and I'll try to explain

but I hope this answers your question

[kevkiev]

I think wastelandassassin has covered the meat and potatoes, i.e. the merged plugin, which stays whole in your fallout4/data folder, will still path to the requisite nif/materials/textures. (Actually, the plugin paths to the nif, which in turn paths to the materials and textures.)

 

I think the only thing to look out for is if the mod author has packed any of the mod's assets (i.e. stuff apart from the esp like textures etc) into ba2 files instead of leaving them as loose files. In that case, you'd have to use either the archive2 tool (which I recall is part of the CK download) or the Bethesda Archive Extractor mod to extract the contents of the ba2 to put those assets back into a loose file format (I've only used the BAE for that type of thing, but I think you can do the same thing with archive2). Then, putting those files into your fallout4/data folder will make the assets accessible by your merged .esp. (Probably easiest to extract the assets to a separate folder, zip them up into a 7z or rar, then install them into fallout4/data via NMM's manual installation feature.) After that, you could go one step further and pack all the assets of the various mods you've merged and create new ba2 files specific to your merged plugin. Chuck Steel has a good step-by-step for that exercise in this thread. He talks about the CK (which I typically use for that) although some people only use the archive2 tool.

 

That said, I must admit I've only tried the Merge Plugins mod once, and couldn't get it to work because it didn't read my load order correctly for the mods I was trying to merge (I know a few people have run into that). So I'm not all that familiar with its features.

[vicki08]

Hi, y'all!

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply!

WastelandAssassin: Thank you for your explanation of the .esp files, as that is definitely what I needed to know! The .esp files are new to me, so I wasn't sure how they worked once NMM took over. If I understand what you said in the 2nd part, for most of the retextures, I should be just fine because, whether the main mod file that they are overwriting is on its own in the Data folder or part of the merged block, it will work the same way. This is great news!

kevkiev: I checked the retexture mod to look for the loose files that you mentioned above, and it looks to me like the main mod (Wanderer's Trench Coat) does in fact have other files included, other than the .esp file. One of those additional files is a BA2 file. I compared the file contents list, and it looks like the main mod doesn't have the loose files for the Textures, as I see those listed individually in the retexture but not in the main. This is the odd situation that you are cautioning me to watch for, correct? For that .ba2 file, I need to break it down into loose files, put them into Data, and allow the retexture to overwrite them? Or, if I understand chucksteel's tutorial notes, I should package the .ba2 into an .esp, which I could then include in my merge? I am not sure which is the best approach.

Again, thank y'all so much for the help! I love learning about how to use these tools and mods, and I really appreciate your thoroughness and helpfulness! :smile:


Victoria

[WastelandAssassin]

kevkiev is definitely correct in mentioning packaged assets , which I entirely forgot

the thing about such cases (BSA or BA2 archives , depending on the game) is that these are basically packaged assets (kind of like rar archives , but specifically for Bethesda games)

and in order for the game to look for assets inside such an archive , there must be a plugin that calls for it

I am not sure if when merging such plugins , the parts that call for the archive would be carried over into the merge . in such a case it is best to simply extract the contents of the archive (BAE works wonderful for this) and placing them in your Data folder , or in your virtual installation folder , depending on how you install the mod

what you could do is before installing such a mod , extract the contents of these archives , make sure all files are set with the correct folder structure , package all of the files into a rar archive (or 7z , both work) and install this with your mod manager . thus you make sure all of your files are installed to the correct location , and you already have the loose files ready for the merge

 

haven't personally tried this myself as well , as I also had an issue with Merge Plugins reading my load order incorrectly

and I usually limit my mod usage anyhow , as I tend to get bored of my characters after some time , so I use less mods per character , and use several different characters

but I think this should cover the "basic" information you may need

 

if this is somewhat confusing (which I expect it is , as I'm sure I could have simplified what I wrote , but that is the product of a sleepy helper) , please feel free to ask whatever questions you may have

this community is full of helpful users , and I'm sure we'll be glad to assist :)

[kevkiev]

NOTE: I just saw that wasteland assassin has followed things up while I was typing an arguably blathering post about, no doubt, at least some of the same stuff. But, from the "more information is probably better than not enough" Dept., I'll post it anyways. Here goes:

------------------------

 

Hmmn, checked out that mod and the author's (the author of the original mod, not the mended version) indeed packed the textures into a ba2 but has left the meshes and material files as loose. I've actually never seen that before. (Sheltered life, perhaps.) Where ba2s are used, textures always get their own ba2 but meshes (nifs) and materials (BGSM and/or BGEM files) are typically also packed into a "main" ba2. (ie textures are in a <esp name> - textures.ba2 and the other files in a <esp name> - main.ba2. It's critical to have the [space][dash][space] between the esp name and the ba2's file type name). Works either way, I suppose but, yeah, I've just never seen that before.

 

Something I should have mentioned is that bodyslide files are always left as loose files, so maybe the author thought he should leave the nifs and material files loose too. Although I've packed up various loose mesh/material files into ba2s along with a separate ba2 for textures (while leaving the bodyslide files loose) and never had a problem.

 

As another side note, sound files are also typically left as loose files since compression can screw them up. Although I think you can pack sound files into a ba2 as long as you make sure not to use compression - never done that so can't say for sure.

 

As another another side note, if anything I ever say conflicts with some of Chuck Steel's advice, take his advice. Like, 100% of the time :tongue: But I don't think there's any conflict here.

 

Anyways...

 

Essentially, an esp can draw on loose files or a ba2 for its assets. Ba2s give better performance but, when the same texture is present in both a ba2 and a loose file, the esp will use the loose file. For example, I recently published a radio mod that uses ba2 files, but I had a draft specular texture on hand that didn't have a layer I added later that made the casing look a bit scratched up. I published that texture as an optional file called "scratch remover", keeping it as a loose file, so people could install that separately and it would take precedence over the (scratchy) specular map I included in the ba2.

 

If you look at the files in the "Mended" version of your mod, all the files are loose. So the meshes and materials will overwrite the original mod's meshes and materials (I'm assuming they all have the same names/ file paths) in the sense that they will actually replace them. The textures will also overwrite the original textures, but only in practice since the original mod's ba2 files will still physically remain, as-is, in your data folder. ("Override" is probably more accurate than "overwrite" when it comes to the textures in the mended version.)

 

So, if you pack up a mod's textures into a ba2, you have to delete the loose texture files from your data folder before the esp will indeed use the ba2 (same goes for meshes etc.).

 

In your case of merging mods, after the merge the plugin will be new and, although it'll use the same loose files (specifically, their file paths) as existed before the merge, it will no longer use the ba2 that was made for the pre-merge esp. If you go the ba2 route, you're customizing your ba2s for your new esp so any packing of stuff into ba2s is done after the merge, not before. (Unless the merge plugins mod has some kind of magic that works around that. And I stopped underestimating long ago the magic that some modders here can come up with.)

 

So the "breaking down" you mention is (i) to make the files into loose ones so they're usable by your new merged esp (since it won't read your old ba2), or (ii) as a first step in making new ba2s specific to your newly merged esp.

 

Hope that all made sense.

[vicki08]

Y'all are just too fabulous! Thank you so, so much for all of this in-depth information!

I would love to say that I understood everything, but I'm too honest for that! I think I will just need to practice a bit with the different tools, like BAE, which I haven't even seen yet as it seemed a bit out of my league, and run some tests with the mods. (Yay! Weekend plans!) On the bright side, if I can make this all work the way I hope it will, the other mods should be considerably easier! :thumbsup:

WastelandAssassin: The process that you mentioned of "extract-check structure-zip up" to be installed with NMM, the goal of that would be to have the loose files in the merge, rather than the .ba2 file, because the merge might not read it, correct? In that case, the .esp is looking for the loose files, which the retexture mod has the revised versions of many of the files, so I could perhaps create a loose file bundle, pulling from the 2 mods, and zip that up for the NMM? Does the zipped up file act as the new .ba2 file?

kevkiev: Following that train of thought, if it is a new .ba2 file, this would be what you mentioned at the end about having a new BA2 for the merge?

I apologize; I am trying to visualize the nuts and bolts of this process from beginning to end in my head, but I think I may be asking the same question 500 different ways. :unsure:

Thank you again for your patient answers to my questions!


Victoria

[WastelandAssassin]

the process I described is for getting the files packaged properly as a mod , so that you can install it via NMM

this is because NMM installs these files to a specific folder , so to verify the installation is done properly you should basically create a loose version of the mod (by unpacking the BA2 archives , packaging it all as a rar or 7z archive) installing it via NMM to make sure all of the files are in the correct place , and that NMM recognizes these files and will load them

if you try to unpack the BA2 after already installing the mod , there is just a high chance of you not placing the files in the correct location , which would lead to missing meshes or textures etc , and you're going to want to avoid such issues

so no , the packaging does not act like a BA2 file , it's simply packaging the files in a format your mod manager can install (just like you would get if you downloaded a mod that only contains loose assets)

 

hope this clears it up :)

[kevkiev]

Hope you have enough info to go on vicki08.

 

I took another look at the Merge Plugins mod today, and it worked quite nicely to merge 18 simple esp-only mods into a single file. Didn't run into that loading error I got the first time 'round (all 18 just had Fallout4.esm as a master).

 

I musta overlooked a buncha stuff last time too, as it indeed is set up to handle the various assets (even sound files and scripts). I didn't really dive in too thoroughly given the simplicity of what I was doing today, so can't really offer anything on how that all works.