Fallout 3.5: Complete Fallout 3 + New Vegas + DLC, Thoughts?

[Dandys]

I have been working on the "Requiem for The Capital Wasteland" or "Best of Both Worlds" mods, and those have made a lot possible so far, but there is one more step to making the perfect Fallout experience - DLC.

 

DLC can just be patched to work with Best of Both Worlds. With all DLC, you would be running the main file plus 14 DLC files, which would work like always and like mods.

 

DLC have always had some fundamental limitations though. Since they are all self-contained, they cannot reference each other, and if they alter the same record, they override each other. For example, the aliens in Fallout: New Vegas can't have the real Mothership Zeta alien weapons, you can't find Point Lookout Double-Barrel Shotguns or Lever-Action Rifles on Honest Hearts Tribals, and the Dead Money Old World Gourmet perk won't work on drink/food from any other DLC.

 

The solution is to combine the DLC, too, into the main file, creating a single ultimate version of the game. What this involves, however, is a renumbering of all of the FormIDs from all DLC. If you're not familiar with FormIDs, that's okay, but the main thing that this means is that because of this, mods that alter DLC content from Fallout 3 or Fallout: New Vegas will not be compatible with the ultimate version. Another thing that is important to point out is that this ultimate version will be all-or-none, that is, you must own all DLC from both Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas to use it.

 

Simple mods that require DLC can be modified to work with the ultimate merge. A basic rule of thumb is if all of the modified DLC records have EditorIDs (i.e. they are not placed objects in a cell or worldspace) the mod is very easy to convert, and if not, it is difficult but not impossible to convert. Technically, no mod is impossible to convert to work with the ultimate merge.

 

I want to take a quick poll and have your comments on whether you would find this useful. Are the benefits worth the drawback of not being able to use some mods?

 

Just so you know, the ultimate version is already done, just not released, so that shouldn't factor into your decision process. It's not like if the poll shows that most people don't like it I won't make it - I will try to release it anyway, I'm just trying to gauge the community's enthusiasm or concerns about it.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Dandys

[Cyberlazy]

Actually, one of my goals of LLO was to allow DLC to merge with each other and the main game. Now that I finaly have an auto*magic* installer for LLO patches, I can finally achieve my goal of WORLD DOMINATION... err.. I mean... DLC integration.

 

The trick is to have one master with all the records you need and patches for all DLC's for that master to add the content. Separation of interface and data, so to speak.

 

As for being unable to merge two DLC's additions.. Well, thats why I wrote a mod merger program.

Ummm, Does RFTCW happen to need an automated custom installer program that can merge multiple ESP's into a single file and run custom programs/etc?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Cyberlazy

[tizerist]

I think it depends on what you mean by

alter DLC content

because you mentioned Mothership Zeta, which as far as I know wouldn't mix with NV whatsoever because of it's FOSE dependancy.

Unless that situation has changed?

So, is it that mods that simply expand on DLC will be ok, but ones that actually change stuff won't?

That in my case would be a deal-breaker due to the 'Delay DLC' mods for FO3 and NV, which is crucial to my enjoyment of the game.

 

Interested to hear more though before I cast a (somewhat unqualified) vote. ;)

[Dandys]

I think it depends on what you mean by

alter DLC content

because you mentioned Mothership Zeta, which as far as I know wouldn't mix with NV whatsoever because of it's FOSE dependancy.

Unless that situation has changed?

So, is it that mods that simply expand on DLC will be ok, but ones that actually change stuff won't?

That in my case would be a deal-breaker due to the 'Delay DLC' mods for FO3 and NV, which is crucial to my enjoyment of the game.

 

Interested to hear more though before I cast a (somewhat unqualified) vote. ;)

 

I don't get what you mean by Mothership Zeta having FOSE dependancy, it doesn't it's just a regular Bethesda DLC.

What I mean by alter DLC content really is more clear if you are familiar with the data system and FNVedit/FO3edit. Say a mod changes the Alien Atomizer from Mothership Zeta by making it do 5 more damage. Say the FormID of the Alien Atomizer is xx004025 or something. The mod file would have a record under FormID xx004025 that is a copy of the weapon but with just 5 more damage. With the ultimate version of the combined games, however, the FormID of the Atomizer is 00183584 or something. Therefore, when you run the mod, since the two FormIDs don't match up so the mod won't end up overriding the Alien Atomizer properly and there will be no change (this is oversimplified as what would really happen if a mod was dependent on Zeta.esm as a master would be that the mod would just not work). If you really needed the mod to work, you would have to go into FNVedit and fix the mod's masters and change the FormID manually to the ultimate version's FormID of the affected file. Alternatively, if say the mod's change of the Alien Atomizer's damage is not important but it does something that you want to something in the regular game of Fallout 3 or New Vegas, you can just remove all records that require Mothership Zeta from the mod and the rest of it would work properly. The bottom line is that if a mod requires DLC, you will have to either trim the DLC parts of the mod away, change the FormIDs in it manually to match the new ones, or just abandon it.

 

In your case though, you might actually like this mod a lot. What I've done with the DLC is made it so that rather than a bunch of messages popping up at the beginning of the game, you start DLC much like you start a regular quest. A lot of them start with a radio transmission, so in that case, the radio transmission has a realistically limited range, and once you tune into it and hear the message, then the quest starts, you don't just get notified. For example, to start Operation: Anchorage, you have to get within range of the Outcast distress radio signal, and actually listen to the message fully before you get the "Quest Added: Aiding the Outcasts" thing pop up, and the fourth-wall-breaking message box that says "Operation: Anchorage has been installed, you have picked up a radio broadcast that asks for help" or whatever will never pop up. So if that's what you mean by "Delay DLC," or even if it's not but you like it, I think that this mod is for you.

 

Basically this mod is trying to provide a perfect "Vanilla" experience. It combines absolutely all Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas content, and while it will fix bugs, and add DLC and Fallout 3 - Fallout: New Vegas bridging and integration, it is supposed to be more of a modders' resource, a foundation of a complete game, rather than what you think of as a mod in the sense of fan-made non-canon content.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Dandys

[Cyberlazy]

I think it depends on what you mean by

alter DLC content

because you mentioned Mothership Zeta, which as far as I know wouldn't mix with NV whatsoever because of it's FOSE dependancy.

Unless that situation has changed?

 

I don't get what you mean by Mothership Zeta having FOSE dependancy, it doesn't it's just a regular Bethesda DLC.

 

Basically this mod is trying to provide a perfect "Vanilla" experience. It combines absolutely all Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas content, and while it will fix bugs, and add DLC and Fallout 3 - Fallout: New Vegas bridging and integration, it is supposed to be more of a modders' resource, a foundation of a complete game, rather than what you think of as a mod in the sense of fan-made non-canon content.

 

Agreed, No DLC uses FOSE/NVSE, FOSE/NVSE is a fan made script extender, DLC is bethsoft made and never the two shall meet. (Unless bethsoft takes the hint and actualy gives FO4 some real script functions instead of making us add them in!! but thats for another rant)

 

While I totaly commend the idea of a better merge of DLC content (bethsoft did a very poor job of adding DLC content), im really against breaking every DLC using mod/patch to do it.

Some mods don't even have seperate DLC patchs but just require the DLC, authors no longer work on them and are not around to give permissions. Users can not be counted on to do major edits on mods and should not be expected to.

 

It was enough of a pain to make 4 or 5 DLC patchs, I don't want to make 5 more that are just copys of my current patches with tediously manualy converted formid's for every record and ref in those records.

[tizerist]

Apologies, I thought you said Zeta Crew.

 

And yes, what you described is what the delay mod does.

Like Cyberlazy said, if it breaks any and all mods that relate to DLC, it might be a hell of a struggle to sort out in my folder.

I shall just wait and see how it pans out, it's hard to judge this in advance.

Edited June 14, 2012 by tizerist

[Quetzlsacatanango]

You seem like a pretty smart dude, which makes me think there is something I am not understanding, but I don't see why you can't handle all this with a single plugin that has 10 master files (falloutnv.esm, all NV DLC, all FO3 DLC). Patch all the level lists, repair lists, perks, etc that you want.

[Dandys]

You seem like a pretty smart dude, which makes me think there is something I am not understanding, but I don't see why you can't handle all this with a single plugin that has 10 master files (falloutnv.esm, all NV DLC, all FO3 DLC). Patch all the level lists, repair lists, perks, etc that you want.

 

No no, that's a good point. That would work fine too, that's basically an addition to the second option with a single merged base .esm and the separate DLC ones. I guess ultimately the motivation for this ultimate version was compulsiveness - like, you know, do what the developers couldn't and merge all of the Fallout content into one unified game. Maybe an argument can be made about navmesh or something that might have some benefit from having only one centralized main file, I don't know. Maybe there really is no benefit.

 

My hope was to have a single story. You don't choose whether you start in New Vegas or Vault 101; you always start out as a baby and you beat Fallout 3 and then you go to New Vegas. How you get there I don't know, right now it's a vertibird but that's just for now, the only thing that mattered at the point I thought of this was that to have that single unified story you needed Broken Steel, not as an option but as a requirement, since ideally you would go through Fallout 3's questline then through Broken Steel's then on to New Vegas. And if I incorporated Broken Steel, why not do all the others. And that's how this ultimate version started.

 

At this point what you mentioned with all of the DLCs made compatible with Best of Both Worlds and a bugfixing patch is right around the corner. This is a mod site and a mod community and because of that I'm sure the version that is compatible with (almost) all mods will always be the most popular. Still, I am someone who prefers a "Vanilla" experience and I would mostly use just bugfixing mods anyway, so of course to me the idea of having a "perfect" version of the "Vanilla" game is very appealing, even at the cost of compatibility with like half of existing mods, which is why I made this mod. What I want to see is if anyone else is like me and would be interested this file I've put together as an alternative, derivative version of Requiem/Best of Both Worlds.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Dandys

[Cyberlazy]

If navmeshs across multiple ESM's are a problem, merge *those*.

 

A partial merge of records nobody really modifys would be fine.

 

One would hope that not many mods need to edit DLC navmeshs.

I wonder if the cells can live in the DLC and the navmeshs in the main file?

[RockyXY]

I think that the grand merged file version sounds amazing. Personally, I dont use mods that edit the DLC, just oit of happenstance.

 

I have been playing RFCW for about 3 weeks, (the final version is surprisingly hard to find) and I feel that a mod like this could remove the wall texture bugs I've been getting (specifically in subway ruins and the super duper mart)

 

How would make this distributable though? There is no way that releasing a grand .esm would be legal, seeing as how it basically gives fallout 3 to any NV owners, unless i misunderstand this mod...

 

How do I install it? Would I patch them together somehow?