Is this Idiocracy?

[Moraelin]

That said, let's address some of that nonsense.

 

Another factor about adobe, and most stuctures that use stuff like sandstone, dirt brick and any other earth type mineral that isn't stone is those only work well in dry locations like California or Nevada, in Boston which is less dry and more wet and rainy the mud wouldn't be as effective. Another factor is is that adobe isn't just "slapping mud onto a building" it's turning mud into a brick and then building on that, there is actual construction involved. Adobe isn't also the oldest type of structure, for a good while human settlements were typically yurt-like tents and living in caves and in places where adobe wasn't common we used stone. It took a long time for people to learn how to actually build homes out of stone and mud.

It's used all over Eastern Europe for example, and other places where it rains a lot. White wash it and put a roof over it, and it works just fine. Just because in the rich USA today people would rather use better stuff in places where conditions aren't absolutely perfect for it -- and yes, other stuff IS better -- doesn't mean it doesn't work if that's all you have. So, objection overrulled.

 

 

"Why isn't everyone in Goodneighbor living in the buildings and why are raiders in Hangman's Alley not living in the buildings." The decaying buildings that are boarded up and mostly have the floors collapsing in on themselves? You know buildings need to be maintained right? That a building can look fine on the outside but the inside it's a wreck and actively collapsing. This isn't that hard to figure out.

I just had to quote that, because it's such a funny case of missing the whole point I was making. If you can't answer the case I was actually making, twisting it into a strawman works too, eh?

 

I wasn't even talking about LIVING there, but about how their defenses are idiotically useless in that kind of a scenario. I'm talking about a military defense situation, not about being the bestest home ever. And about a world where neither the defenders nor any attackers seem to have enough IQ to figure out the blatant vulnerability.

 

I'm seriously not impressed.

 

 

"The BoS are breaking chain of command" but they're not, is the thing and another thing is is that the Chain that Binds is not a regularly enforced thing, even in Fallout 1 the Chain that Binds is broken by John Maxson who issues orders to the Vault Dweller who was an initiate https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Chain_That_Binds the chain that binds is a obscure rule even at the time John Maxson, the grandson of Roger Maxson, was in charge of the BoS and the point of Hardin was that he was trying anything to oust McNamara. The Chain that Binds wasn't even that known to the BoS in NV, it's an old obscure rule that tbf didn't exist in the series until New Vegas.

Ever considered using paragraph breaks in that Gish Gallop? You know, when you switch from the Goodneighbour strawman to the completely unrelated topic of the BOS? Or would making it easy to read break the efficiency of just throwing a load of irrelevant crap at the wall and seeing if anything sticks?

 

Not knowing that their own rules even exist, is hardly an excuse. If anything it makes it even worse. Not to mention it exactly makes my case about idiocy, if the commander of a unit can't even find it when it's on the computer on his desk :tongue:

 

 

Again, all of this is actually covered in the game, you are blatantly ignoring facts and making assumptions.

I haven't seen you even addressing the actual points, much less show that there's a good explanation in the game. All I see is a Gish Gallop of strawmen, red herrings, and other assorted irrelevant nonsense.

 

So please actually have an argument, before jumping to decree whose argument is dumb, or ignoring facts from the game. As the writing principle goes, show, don't tell. Bein snarky isn't an alternative to actually having a point.

[CiderMuffin]

Learn what strawmaning actually is. I made my points, your post is just wrong and you refuse to admit it. Pointing out that yes, architecture is hard especially for people living in the city far from the forests and yes, living in crumbling old buildings is not the brightest idea. At this point this thread is using inaccuracy for the sake of bashing 4, what a surprise, while ignoring that everything 4 does is consistent with the world.

 

Though if we're being honest I'm wrong, architecture turns out to not be that hard if the inhabitants are actually building homes mostly out of wood instead of entirely scrap metal and the fact that yea, roofs are actually patched up in a lot of places. There is actual planning in their structures that make sense, the buildings they make are sturdy and in some cases you can actually see buildings in Diamond City made from brick and mortar. Covenant also rebuilt old homes and made cement walls, the Abernathys made an entire structure out of a ruined pylon tower and we see people living in wooden shacks all over the place with, yes, patched up roofs.

 

Oh, sorry people behaving intelligent is apparently a red herring and strawmanning according to this topic.

 

But let's get back on topic, let's cover your "3 is idiocracy"

 

And just to make it clear, it's not just Fallout 4. Take for example the big purifier in FO3, and the BOS Outcasts splitting over it. Now let's look at that purifier and how it fits or doesn't fit the BOS philosophy:

 

- it's a unique piece of advanced technology. So, you know, EXACTLY what the BOS is supposed to be controlling, by their very ideology and founding principles

- it has the potential to wipe out every single living soul in DC and adjacent areas. (See the ending where you do what Eden asked.) So, you know, EXACTLY the kind of abuse of technology that the BOS exists to prevent

- having control of the main water source enables a LITERAL Hydraulic Empire, if the BOS wants the population to keep giving them their crops

- it's good PR at the same time as you control those guys

 

Basically it's got even more of a reason to keep control of THAT, than the Helios One had in New Vegas, and the BOS fought and bled for that one. But here, oh noes, it's also helping someone else, let's rebel and split.

 

And that's just one idiocy you have to run into, if you follow the main plot at all.

 

Basically it seems to me like Beth has been building a second order idiot world all along.

"Why did the BoS split over the Purifier" They didn't. The East Coast did split because Lyons stopped looking for tech. Hence why when Arthur Maxson combined the two ideologies the outcasts returned to the fold. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Arthur_Maxson

"Why doesn't the BoS keep the Purifier!!!!!" Purifier doesn't work until the end of 3. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Purity#History

"Why doesn't the BoS set up a empire around the purifier!!!!!" The purifier didn't work until the end of 3 http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Purity#History

"Why did the BoS abandon it when the Enclave could use it!!!!!!" The BoS didn't know about the Enclave until the war

"But it's good PR!!!!!" Yea, it would be good PR if it worked before the end of 3. It does become good PR after 3 though.

"Why did the BoS prioritize Helios One instead of Project Purity!!!!" Yes, because the West Coast Chapter that is 2,4707 miles away is totally going to take that march when they're still busy fighting a losing war to help a chapter that was fighting a losing war against the super mutants. The west coast BoS, the BoS that the Mojave Chapter is under, being fractured and weakened by the war http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/NCR-Brotherhood_War

 

So at what point did I strawman, at what point did I red herring? Because all I see is ignoring facts when presented.

Edited November 8, 2018 by CiderMuffin

[Moraelin]

Learn what strawmaning actually is.[...] So at what point did I strawman, at what point did I red herring? Because all I see is ignoring facts when presented.

No, you do. Or learn to read. Considering that I pointed out repeated instances when you distorted my point into something else or answered to a claim I wasn't making. Hell, considering that even the post right above the one where you ask that, I actually pointed instances of your distorting my point into something else.

 

Or are you saying that you genuinely can't understand the difference between such points as

1. Anyone can chuck down grenades behind your fortified walls from adjacent tall buildings, if you don't control those buildings (my explicit point),

2. "Why isn't everyone in Goodneighbor living in the buildings and why are raiders in Hangman's Alley not living in the buildings." (the strawman you addressed)

 

Are you genuinely having the kind of comprehension problems where you can't even understand how #2 is a complete strawman of #1? Even after it had already been explained to you in the very post above yours?

 

Listen, lying about what you've said and what the other guy said, may work in Fallout, but here it's a thread where everyone can see what was said.

 

I made my points, your post is just wrong and you refuse to admit it.

You made a lot of irrelevant points which were addressing stuff that nobody was actually arguing. Which not only is the very definition of a strawman, but did nothing to show that I was wrong either. Nobody has to admit they're wrong... just because you flailed around and threw a pile of unrelated and fully irrelevant nonsense at the wall.

 

Pointing out that yes, architecture is hard especially for people living in the city far from the forests [...] Though if we're being honest I'm wrong, architecture turns out to not be that hard if the inhabitants are actually building homes mostly out of wood instead of entirely scrap metal and the fact that yea, roofs are actually patched up in a lot of places. There is actual planning in their structures that make sense, the buildings they make are sturdy and in some cases you can actually see buildings in Diamond City made from brick and mortar. Covenant also rebuilt old homes and made cement walls, the Abernathys made an entire structure out of a ruined pylon tower and we see people living in wooden shacks all over the place with, yes, patched up roofs.

So basically I should have admitted that I'm wrong because... pretty much your only non-strawman objection was wrong? :tongue:

 

Gee wiz, I wonder why I didn't figure out myself that if someone makes a blatantly wrong objection, I should... err... wait, what exactly should I do? Say that it's right?

 

 

That said, the fact that such technology wasn't even lost -- as you say, Covenant still knows how to patch a wall; plus there are pre-war ghouls around that still remember stuff -- far from being an excuse, it just makes the others even bigger idiots. Because then they don't even have to reinvent the technology. They just have to look and listen to the guys who still know that stuff. The "you have to be this smart to ride" bar is now lowered from "you have to invent how to put a newspaper in the window" to "you have to be able to copy someone else who fixed the window". Which is a lot lower. And they STILL can't clear even that hurdle.

 

Intelligence being the ability to learn and apply, let's put it this way: even your average cat is VERY able to learn by copying what some other cat is doing. They even learn and copy stuff that that big two-legged hairless cat they share the house with is doing. Yet the average settler in Fallout 4 can watch someone else patch the roof, and... just go back to sleeping in a freezing rain pouring right on their mattress, without having learned to do the same. Intelligence being the ability to learn and apply, these guys are LITERALLY dumber than their cat. As in, LITERALLY, the brain at Abernathy Farm is their feline :tongue:

 

At this point this thread is using inaccuracy for the sake of bashing 4,

Well, see, that seems to be the root of your nonsense defense spree. Instead of trying to even understand what the question was, you rushed to faithfully defend FO4 against an attack that was happening only in your imagination.

 

I wasn't bashing Fallout 4. I actually quite like Fallout 4. I actually like it even more than NV. Hell, I didn't even mention anything from FO4 before YOU asked for examples. But generally, to set things straight:

- considering the number of hours of playing involved in even just testing my mods, if I didn't like FO4, I wouldn't be modding it or being here in the first place

- if I just wanted to bash FO4, I'd just use the many dozens of technical issues that STILL haven't been fixed as the low hanging fruit. Well, not by Bethesda. Arthmoor and the gang fixed some of that, and some even they couldn't fix.

- if I just wanted to bash Bethesda, hell, currently Fallout 76 is the much lower hanging fruit. There's no point in nitpicking about whether the low intelligence of NPCs in FO3 and FO4 is intentional, if the purpose was bashing, when FO76 is a complete fustercluck of MUCH bigger issues :tongue:

 

The question was merely about NPC characterization, not whether FO4 is good, bad or neither.

 

what a surprise, while ignoring that everything 4 does is consistent with the world.

Considering that nobody was arguing that it's inconsistent, you seem to be back to arguing against stuff from your own imagination. Please do try to focus :tongue:

 

"Why did the BoS prioritize Helios One instead of Project Purity!!!!" Yes, because the West Coast Chapter that is 2,4707 miles away is totally going to take that march when they're still busy fighting a losing war to help a chapter that was fighting a losing war against the super mutants. The west coast BoS, the BoS that the Mojave Chapter is under, being fractured and weakened by the war http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/NCR-Brotherhood_War

 

So at what point did I strawman, at what point did I red herring? Because all I see is ignoring facts when presented.

This is just getting so funny. You do a complete strawman in the first line I quoted above, and ask "So at what point did I strawman, at what point did I red herring?" in the very next paragraph :tongue:

 

It's not even the only one in there, but it's the funniest by sheer proximity to your then lying about it.

 

And yes, I will continue to ignore stuff that's fully irrelevant to what I was actually saying. You're gonna keep seeing that, if you continue to just throw nonsense at the wall and hope it sticks.

 

But the good news is that you have the power to change that. Just start actually addressing the actual points, instead of apparently just trying to hear yourself spewing a canned defense of Bethesda and Fallout 4, and you might start being taken seriously.

 

 

That said, good, at least you're starting to address something I actually wrote about, when you get into the purifier situation. You still seem to have to strawman half of it, but still, it's a good start. Now maybe you can actually address the rest of the points, especially the ones about Fallout 4.

 

 

That said, no, even conceding that the outcast situation had other reasons, it still doesn't make them smart. In fact, it makes them even dumber. A huge reason why the Outcasts split under Maxson was that Lyons was supposedly wasting manpower by hunting down supermutants and feral ghouls. So then they reunite under the new Maxson, and... here's an exact quote from Rhys: "Like it or not, one of our most important duties is to keep the Commonwealth clear of the trash. I'm talking about mutants, ghouls, synths... the abominations the damn eggheads caused when they started playing with their toys."

 

Rhys isn't some rogue, btw, but gives those missions with the full sanction of his superiors.

 

So... wait, wait... let me get this straight... They think that keeping the place safe is one of their most important duties, but they got butthurt and split because Lyons was pursuing EXACTLY that important duty? But after Lyons none of them seems to remember what they split over, and are back to considering it one of the most important duties? I mean, really? Is their memory that broken? Heh.

 

If that doesn't make the case that they're complete idiots, I don't know what does :tongue: