Problems creating reflective water in FO3 GECK and other troubles

[RaffTheSweetling]

If anyone could help me with this, you will be my hero!

 

OK, so I placed my cavewater in my underground cavern. I set the Water Noise Texture to use the only one I had, one from the Mothership Zeta Crew mod, a lightly rippling effect (unless I am wrong about what Water Noise Textures are).

 

I painstakingly set reflections and refractions of objects which would reasonably appear reflected in the cavewater and checked that each section of water held all reflections equally and none were neglected.

 

I carefully placed lights. Some ambient, some source lighting such as lamps and cave fungus glow. I set the lights individually to also be reflected in the water. I then marveled at how lovely the whole thing looked. I checked from all angles to see if it looked incomplete and I was very happy with my first attempt at creating realistic water.

I even made some new cave fungus lights of psychedelic colors just because it is in fitting with the mod I am making, in terms of color palette.

 

THEN, when I play it on FO3 to test everything in-game. All the lights are gone.

 

I open GECK up again, and sure enough, the light's themselves no longer emit any light. They are still physically there, the set lights, also the reflections on the water of the set light is even there, but the light given off by the light items are no longer being generated.

 

I checked with a limited knowledge of what to look for and the lights are not initially disabled. I checked and all reflections/refractions are still there.

 

Please can someone tell me what I did wrong, or how to fix this?

[prensa]

RaffTheSweetling - Hello!

 

Yeah, I've never been able to find any article in the GECK guide about the "Lit Water" setting.

 

My experience is purely from trial & error. :)

 

I found the same thing as you did, a light set as "Lit Water" with a body of water selected does indeed create a nice light effect on that water but it creates no light in the area other than that lovely reflection.

 

Simple solution, add another light for lighting the room, leave the one set for the water as it is.

 

Works for me. :)

 

This seems to be what Bethesda does, take a look at Interior - "IrradiatedSewer01", they light it as normal & then use one light (UtilityFloorlightLitWaterAmb) for "Lit Water" setting.

 

Worth noting to, it's best to enter a room fresh when you're testing water noise settings etc. as they may not update when changing in GECK to loading a save game from before you changed the water setting.

 

"I set the Water Noise Texture to use the only one I had, one from the Mothership Zeta Crew mod"

 

You can get more water noise textures from the Fallout - Textures.bsa. (they have to be unpacked to be used in GECK.

 

I use BSA unpacker that's built into FOMM & is listed under "Tools".

 

From there open Fallout - Textures.bsa & type water into the search filter to find the files.

 

There's waterfoam01.dds, wastelandwaterpotomac.dds & several more. They are all in that textures/water/ folder.

 

Best to unpack them all & place them in your data folder with that same sructure, you can the experiment in GECK with the setting you like the best for your water.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Prensa

Edited July 2, 2012 by prensa

[RaffTheSweetling]

RaffTheSweetling - Hello!

 

Yeah, I've never been able to find any article in the GECK guide about the "Lit Water" setting....

 

....Hope this helps!

 

Prensa

 

Hi Prensa!

 

Big, Big thanks for your comment, and for taking the time to do that.

 

Re: Your suggestions for placing more lights - Brilliant! I don't even know why it never occurred to me to do that. I will do that at once.

 

Re: Using the .bsa unpacker tool in FOMM. again, Brilliant. I never even knew it was there. And all this time I have been scratching my head over locked up files that I cant edit from the vanilla engine.

One little question - I found BSA Browser, but no BSA Unpacker, in FOMM > Tools. I am presuming they are the same. As it yielded the same results when I extracted them. (I searched for the texture paths you gave and then dragged the water noise textures into my Data\Textures\Water folder to use from there in GECK along with any others that were there.)

Is that the usual method. ? Can I also do this with .esm files the same way? Like to make static objects of anything from meshes in the vanilla engine?

I guess I'm going to find out :)

 

If I could ask for another thing I need help with now, if you don't mind; I am making a diner, and have noticed that one particular piece, a mid wall with a connecting window, does not allow me to stand on the floor. It will always (and this includes when I delete and add a new tile) behaves as though there is no floor and I fall through into space. I have experienced similar problems before but this is persistent and I need to use this piece.

I have thought about making some kind of invisible floor but not tried doing that yet.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Hey, Prensa. Cant thank you enough for your comment. Seriously. Thanks a lot!

 

btw - my name's Griffin :)

 

EDIT:

 

P.S. Google led me to this page on the Bethsoft.com site and from here is where I learned the first steps for placing water and adding reflections. Was very useful for a beginner -

Edited June 28, 2012 by RaffTheSweetling

[prensa]

Griffin - Hello!

 

"Big, Big thanks for your comment, and for taking the time to do that."

 

Glad to help! :)

 

"Re: Using the .bsa unpacker tool in FOMM. again, Brilliant. I never even knew it was there."

 

A lot of people don't realise FOMM has several really useful tools other than it's mod manager functions. :)

 

It's even got a .BSA Creator to make your own .BSA's.

 

"all this time I have been scratching my head over locked up files that I cant edit from the vanilla engine."

 

I did the same until I found that tool, now I use it all the time. :)

 

"One little question - I found BSA Browser, but no BSA Unpacker, in FOMM > Tools. I am presuming they are the same."

 

I'm using "Old" FOMM & it's listed as "BSA Unpacker" under tools, maybe you're using "New" FOMM? Possible name change in "New" FOMM?

 

However the actual tool, when opened, is called BSA Browser so you are indeed using the same thing. :)

 

"(I searched for the texture paths you gave and then dragged the water noise textures into my Data\Textures\Water folder to use from there in GECK along with any others that were there.) Is that the usual method. ? "

 

Yes, drag or use the "Extract" button. As long as you place it in the same folder structure location, it will be treated as the vanilla file.

 

"Can I also do this with .esm files the same way?"

 

No to .esm's or .esp's.

 

An .esm is a Master & an .esp is a Plugin file, basically all the code changes made to Fallout's main structure, added NPC, created interiors, modifications to weapons settings are all things you find in .esm's or .esp's.

 

You open them with GECK, of FO3Edit:

 

http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/637

 

FO3Edit is a very useful .esm/.esp editor & allows you to see the changes made by your's & other's plugins much better than can be viewed in GECK.

 

It's very handy for making tweaks & finding any accidental changes you may have made in GECK to object you did not want to edit.

 

.BSA's are simply Bethesda's custom archives, they contain the meshes, textures & sounds all packed up in one tidy bundle.

 

You can use BSA Browser to open any of the .BSA's, "Fallout - Meshes.BSA" would be the one you want if you're after changing vanilla models.

 

You'd extract the desired model/mesh just as you did those textures.

 

"Like to make static objects of anything from meshes in the vanilla engine?"

 

To modify meshes you'd use Nifskope:

 

http://niftools.sourceforge.net/wiki/NifSkope

 

Handy place to learn about Nifskope & meshes:

 

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/NifSkope_Comprehensive_Guide

 

Nifskope can seem daunting at first but it can be used to manipulate vanilla meshes in all kinds of fun ways, it's a lot easier than learning Blender anyway. :)

 

"from here is where I learned the first steps for placing water and adding reflections. Was very useful for a beginner"

 

The geck.bethsoft.com site is invaluable, lots to read & learn plus it's pretty easy to follow.

 

"If I could ask for another thing I need help with now, if you don't mind; I am making a diner, and have noticed that one particular piece, a mid wall with a connecting window, does not allow me to stand on the floor."

 

Does the piece have a floor connected to it?

 

Some pieces are just walls & you need to use them with floor pieces.

 

What's the exact name of the piece causing you trouble? I'll check it out in GECK.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Prensa

[RaffTheSweetling]

Hi Prensa. You are seriously becoming my new favorite person you know. :) (don't tell my wife though)

 

Re: "Can I also do this with .esm files the same way?" ....

 

I made a mistake with my question here. A silly mixup. I wrote .esm, but in my head I was thinking about texture files - .nif type files. Not .esm files. Sorry about that. Definitely the .bsa unpacker can't open those. sigh.

 

 

Re: "It's very handy for making tweaks & finding any accidental changes you may have made in GECK to object you did not want to edit."

 

This might be useful to me because I inadvertently overwrote an object's filepath with a new mesh .nif. And have no idea how to change it back.

 

I usually make a new static object by typing static into the object window 'filter' box. and then grabbing and dragging the topmost object into the render window, then just changing the filepath directory setting with a different mesh/texture and renaming it, thus creating a unique item.

 

However, on one occasion I did just this with a piece of a broken up Boeing 707 from a mod I found here and when I saw that the texture had not rendered correctly (I believed, it was just red with no texture, don't know how to fix this, though I read that sometimes this happens and in game the object looks fine) anyway, I thought I had then cancelled the operation, but actually I must have clicked 'OK" because now that object, which is from Mothership Zeta I think - 00MSBookStatic01 - is a big red broken airplane part.

 

It is, hopefully not forever, replaced by that airplane part now. I just lack the knowhow to fix it.

 

today, with the new tool you showed me, I opened the .bsa for meshes and found a genericbook01.nif. then moved that into meshes\clutter\books and did the same with the textures according to the filepath director for those files. But when I tried to change it back into a book, it only showed a section of flat ground as the mesh, and the textures dont appear in the list of available textures at all. Crazy bloody confusing.

 

RE: Handy place to learn about Nifskope & meshes:

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php/NifSkope_Comprehensive_Guide

 

Thanks for this great link!

 

RE: "... mid wall with a connecting window, does not allow me to stand on the floor..."

"Does the piece have a floor connected to it?"

 

Yes, it is VDnWallWindow01. From the vanilla .bsa. Always fall through it over an over, no matter what I try.

 

Big huge thanks again, Prensa. Can I post more issues or questions here? You really know a hell of a lot, and if you are happy to reply, I certainly could benefit from your knowledge. :)

 

Griffin

Edited June 28, 2012 by RaffTheSweetling

[prensa]

Griffin - Hello!

 

"I usually make a new static object by typing static into the object window 'filter' box. and then grabbing and dragging the topmost object into the render window, then just changing the filepath directory setting with a different mesh/texture and renaming it, thus creating a unique item."

 

Yes, always create your own version when changing items, you just need to change it's ID name, then when you click OK GECK asks if you want to create a new form.

 

Otherwise you can mess up other things that are using the original object. :)

 

"I thought I had then cancelled the operation, but actually I must have clicked 'OK" because now that object, which is from Mothership Zeta I think - 00MSBookStatic01 - is a big red broken airplane part."

 

It's easy to make accidental changes in GECK.

 

FO3Edit is very handy to check for & correct these unintentional changes.

 

Before doing so though, MAKE A BACKUP COPY of your mod!

 

Nothing worse than making a mistake & finding hours of your work go down the drain. ;)

 

Run FO3Edit with your mod ticked & once it's loaded up go to your mod on the list.

 

You can expand it's details by clicking on the + next to it.

 

There will be many sub headings like Weapon.

 

Say you accidentally made a change to the Samurai's Sword from Mother Ship Zeta when you made your mod, you'd locate that in your mod details in Weapon & simply right click on it & select Remove.

 

Close FO3Edit & it will ask you to save changes to your mod, click OK.

 

If any other mod is listed when it asks you to save changes untick it BEFORE closing FO3Edit.

 

No more unintended changes to that object.

 

Additionaly changed items that are in use elsewhere will show up in colors.

 

As you become mor accostomed to FO3Edit there are even ways to automate some of this sort of thing but I find manual checking to be the safest. You can generally see if something is shown as edited in your mod & you think "I never meant to change that!". :)

 

"It is, hopefully not forever, replaced by that airplane part now. I just lack the knowhow to fix i"

 

The above can be used to fix things like that, though if you did not save the changes to your mod in GECK they will not show up in game.

 

"today, with the new tool you showed me, I opened the .bsa for meshes and found a genericbook01.nif. then moved that into meshes\clutter\books and did the same with the textures according to the filepath director for those files. But when I tried to change it back into a book, it only showed a section of flat ground as the mesh, and the textures dont appear in the list of available textures at all. Crazy bloody confusing."

 

Not sure what you mean here.

 

By moving the book out & putting it in the same path as the .BSA version, you'd be changing the base object.

 

In the case of those water noise textures that's what you wanted to do but not if you want to change the book.

 

If you want your own book, rename the mesh & put the book mesh into your own mods folder.

 

You can then go into GECK & create a new book object by renaming a vanilla one & pointing it's model to the newly placed book.

 

If I've got the wrong end of the stick there let me know what you're trying to set up. :)

 

"Yes, it is VDnWallWindow01. From the vanilla .bsa. Always fall through it over an over, no matter what I try."

 

I've checked out that piece in GECK & in game, it has no collision.

 

You can see this in GECK by selecting View at the top & ticking Collision Geometry.

 

On objects with collision you'll now see a red wireframe showing the collision, there's none on that piece you mention.

 

Right clciking on that piece in the Object window & selecting "Use Info" (that's a handy way to find where an item is used in the vanilla game & see how Bethesda worked it) shows this is an unused bit of architecture.

 

Perhaps that's why it never got collision added.

 

I've looked at it in Nifskope & it's definitely got no collision.

 

There is a corner version that's got collision:

 

VDnWallEndCorInWinL01

 

If that's of no use to you because of the corner, I've knocked up a VDnWallWindow01 with collison by using the ordinary wall & window piece (the only difference between the two was that checker flooring).

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?1fxpwl1v69kawd1

 

This piece should work fine, I've called it vdnwallwindow01Collision.

 

Take that file & place it in your mods files in the data folder, in Geck call up VDnWallWindow01 & change it's name to create a new object, click on Edit Model & point it to that new vdnwallwindow01Collision piece.

 

You can now use as normal.

 

"Can I post more issues or questions here? You really know a hell of a lot, and if you are happy to reply, I certainly could benefit from your knowledge. "

 

I'm still learning quite a lot myself but if I can help I will! :)

 

Prensa

Edited June 28, 2012 by prensa

[RaffTheSweetling]

Hey there Prensa.

 

Cheers for replying once again. :)

 

"FO3Edit is very handy to check for & correct these unintentional changes....."

"....Before doing so though, MAKE A BACKUP COPY of your mod!"

 

I have gotten into the habit of hotkey saving every few minutes, and backup copy saving every few hours. I think I have been doing my mod for around 2 months now. The worst loss so far has been to lose a good three solid days of work because I had no more recently backed up copy of my plugin than that. I couldn't even tell you what the problem was. Just kept getting a "the memory cant be written" message accompanied by a CTD each time I tried to load it. Damn shame.

 

"Nothing worse than making a mistake & finding hours of your work go down the drain. ;)"

You said it.

 

"Run FO3Edit with your mod ticked & once it's loaded up go to your mod on the list.

You can expand it's details by clicking on the + next to it.

There will be many sub headings like Weapon.

Say you accidentally made a change to the Samurai's Sword from Mother Ship Zeta when you made your mod, you'd locate that in your mod details in Weapon & simply right click on it & select Remove.

Close FO3Edit & it will ask you to save changes to your mod, click OK."

 

 

OK, just tried this. Got a big scary warning, something in along the lines of "Enter at ye peril. Ye have been warned!" when I opted to remove the item I had altered. But I have backed up my save and I am checking if I did it correctly right now.

 

>>As I speak, it worked!!!!!!!<< You are no mere human. You are ... well, you are bloody helpful. That's for sure. Awesome tip that one.

 

"If I've got the wrong end of the stick there let me know what you're trying to set up. :)"

 

You didn't. I just wasn't being clear. I was trying to extract the mesh and texture from the vanilla .bsa files to reset the book myself. Though it didn't work, and I have since gotten rid of the files I extracted. Now your method of using FO3edit has done the trick.

 

"I've looked at it in Nifskope & it's definitely got no collision."

"There is a corner version that's got collision"

 

yeah, that ones no good to me i'm afraid. I even downloadedthis mod, for extra diner pieces. (My mod is not small)

 

"If that's of no use to you because of the corner, I've knocked up a VDnWallWindow01 with collison by using the ordinary wall & window piece (the only difference between the two was that checker flooring)."

 

I don't know how you did it. And especially so quickly, but man, thanks a lot. Really, really sorry though, I unfortunately don't get mediafire.com here.

Here being China (I work here) because it, like just about everything else, is blocked here. Through a proxy server I see your download, but can't download it. And I don't have a VPN. If you wanted to email that to me, I don't mind you pm'ing me. Thanks a lot mate, for doing that work. :)

 

 

"I'm still learning quite a lot myself but if I can help I will! :)"

 

Many thanks. Cos I have lots to ask hehe.

 

(never did find Ripley's Rifle you know :s )

Edited June 28, 2012 by RaffTheSweetling

[prensa]

Griffin - Hello!

 

"The worst loss so far has been to lose a good three solid days of work because I had no more recently backed up copy of my plugin than that. I couldn't even tell you what the problem was. Just kept getting a "the memory cant be written" message accompanied by a CTD each time I tried to load it. Damn shame."

 

Ouch! That's annoying.

 

Did you know, GECK makes a backup copy of your plugin for you every time you save?

 

It's placed into:

 

Fallout 3\Data\Backup

 

It'll have an extra bit on the end like:

 

YourMod.esp.1.bak

 

If you ever need it you just copy it into your data folder & delete that:

 

.1.bak

 

Off the end.

 

It can save your skin if things go bad. :)

 

"OK, just tried this. Got a big scary warning, something in along the lines of "Enter at ye peril. Ye have been warned!" when I opted to remove the item I had altered. But I have backed up my save and I am checking if I did it correctly right now."

 

I should have warned you about that message, it is rather intimidating isn't it? :)

 

It's just to warn the unwarry, as long as you make a backup before making changes all is well.

 

"As I speak, it worked!!!!!!!"

 

Great! FO3Edit is a bit scary at first because of all the numbers & such but it so handy.

 

It's so much easier to see all your mods changes then it is in GECK.

 

"I unfortunately don't get mediafire.com here. Here being China (I work here) because it, like just about everything else, is blocked here. Through a proxy server I see your download, but can't download it. "

 

At least you can download from the Nexus, it's not all bad. :)

 

I've uploaded the file to the Nexus as an additional on one of my small fixes mods.

 

You can find it here:

 

http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/16573

 

It's in the files section under Miscellaneous & is called:

 

vdnwallwindow01Collision

 

It's zip packed & very tiny of course.

 

I've only just uploaded it so you will probably have to wait an hour or so for it to reach the servers.

 

"(never did find Ripley's Rifle you know :s ) "

 

I'll send you a pm here with the exact location.

 

Prensa

Edited June 28, 2012 by prensa

[RaffTheSweetling]

Hi Prensa.

 

Thanks for setting up that download for me there. I got it and it works fine. Really appreciate you doing that.

 

I'm a little bit forlorn right now. I did a few more hours work today and when I loaded my plugin just now, I noticed for some reason that another mod was at the bottom of my list in the data files selection of GECK. Danthegeek's Undergroun Hideout. I often load that one up in addition to my own, I learn a lot about scripts from his mod and a few other's I have.

 

I load up the cell I am working on and then I see that there is now a duplicate of that cell in the cell's list. I open the original and see that all contents of that cell are gone except for the pieces I had modified/moved/created or configured before my last save. I check the duplicate of that cell and see the intact cell, minus those modifications and additions.

I try to put it behind me and think about fixing it somehow, but then I change my mind and turn off GECK and go see where the back up copy of my last save that GECK would have made.

 

There I see that GECK has made backup copies called "Underground Hideout". And it has made at least five of these. Despite the fact that I am absolutely positive I have never set The Underground Hideout as my active mod, or made any changes in it.

 

I am now loading an earlier save, but Underground Hideout has appeared again below my own work-in-progress plugin in the list of plugins in GECK's data list.

 

..Just loaded that earlier save and it appears to have exactly the same mod work in it as my last save, which doesn't seem possible, as those changes were made after the save file was created. And again, there is a duplicate of the cell with the same problems there.

 

Any chance you have experienced this?

 

Griffin

 

EDIT.. seems more and more likely that at some point I did inadvertently select 'underground hideout' as the active file. Which would explain the backup saves of it, and the fact that my own cell had a duplicate entriy made for the changes that took place within it.

 

Do you think so? :( :(

Edited June 29, 2012 by RaffTheSweetling

[prensa]

Griffin - Hello!

 

"Thanks for setting up that download for me there. I got it and it works fine. Really appreciate you doing that."

 

No problem at all! Glad it worked. :)

 

"I did a few more hours work today and when I loaded my plugin just now, I noticed for some reason that another mod was at the bottom of my list in the data files selection of GECK."

 

That's perfectly normal, when you first run GECK & go to set the DATA files it will list ALL plugins in your DATA folder.

 

They will be listed in date order with the newest one listed at the bottom (with masters/.esm files sorted first).

 

Normally your current work in progress file will be at the bottom as it's the latest created mod however, if you move mods under your work in progress mod or make changes to another mod they will be listed last.

 

For instance, with GECK off, got to FOMM & move a mod .esp under your work in progress mod. Now when you open GECK & go to the DATA files you will see that mod listed under your mod.

 

It does no harm except you may set the bottom mod as the active without realising it's not your mod. :)

 

Just use FOMM to move your work in progress back to the bottom.

 

"There I see that GECK has made backup copies called "Underground Hideout". And it has made at least five of these. Despite the fact that I am absolutely positive I have never set The Underground Hideout as my active mod, or made any changes in it."

 

Sunds like you accidentally selected Underground Hideout as the active file, probably because it was at the bottom where you expected your mod to be.

 

"There I see that GECK has made backup copies called "Underground Hideout". And it has made at least five of these."

 

Right, the multiple Backups, are they in the Data folder mixed in with the plugins?

 

If they are they are made by FO3Edit. FO3Edit makes backups whenever you make a change with it & sticks something like:

 

.backup.2012_05_26_13_42_46

 

On the end of it. The more you use FO3Edit the more these can build up, just carefully clean out the Backups from time to time (I use the search filter to make sure to only remove the backups).

 

Don't confuse FO3Edit's backups with GECK's.

 

GECK's Backups are made everytime you save your mod & will be in a folder called Backup in your Data folder:

 

Fallout 3\Data\Backup

 

You should have several backups in there to choose from (they'll be dated so choose one before this hitch).

 

Hope this helps!

 

Prensa

Edited June 29, 2012 by prensa